Bad Treatment
Dr.P.Venugopal, Director - AIIMS, has been dismissed... by Dr.Ramadoss. Politicians treat their fellow politicians very badly at times.
CNN-IBN seems to agree - its headline for the story is 'Bad Treatment'. I agree it's bad treatment.Wonder what CNN-IBN, in retrospect, would call the treatment - abuse, innuendoes..the jokes meted out to 'quota doctors' by the students, doctors employed by AIIMS from its hallowed, 'autonomous' precincts ? Good, clean fun?
posted by obc voice @ 2:25 AM
53 Comments:
Dont think its bad treatment. After all Dr Venugopal has led this institution into a veritable cesspool, where doctors are more interested in politics than saving lives and doing cutting edge research.
The great doctor has earned enough encomiums in return of the efforts he made and did not made at AIIMS.
The manner in which AIIMS doctors behaved during the quota controversy, it is apt that doctor Venugopal should go as he failed to lead the great institution
U online mate.
Caste divide in UK Indian communities rampant, claims report
By Hugh Muir
They are communities that live together, look alike and share a common background. To the uninitiated, there is no discernible difference. But a report will today claim that many Indian communities in Britain are blighted by caste discrimination. Researchers detail claims that many of the 50,000 Dalits in the UK - once known as India's lower-caste "untouchables" - suffer discrimination from other castes in terms of jobs, healthcare, politics, education and schools.
In a report likely to provoke bitter controversy, researchers were told how couples who marry outside their own caste face "violence, intimidation and exclusion". The study, No Escape - Caste Discrimination in the UK, focuses on domestic discrimination, although campaigners are also trying to force British firms with commercial interests in India to outlaw practices unfair to Dalits. The government has promised to consider the issue in forthcoming legislation and to look at claims of discrimination against lower-caste Gurkhas in the British army.
David Haslam of the Dalit Solidarity Network, who organised the research, said the group had spoken to 130 people for the study. "Dalits across the UK felt that within the Indian community, their identity was based on caste and that the caste system was very much in operation." He said respondents called for caste discrimination to be addressed in schools as part of the national curriculum and for the establishment of more temples open to worshippers of all castes. Eighty-five per cent urged the UK authorities to "work towards the elimination of caste discrimination".
Jeremy Corbyn, MP for Islington North and a Dalit Solidarity Network trustee, said he was aware of caste discrimination abroad but was "horrified" to "realise that caste discrimination has been exported". He added: "This is an issue which the government and all those concerned about good community relations need to address."
The former mayor of Coventry, Ram Lakha, told researchers how he faced discrimination from upper-caste voters when seeking election in a largely Indian ward. "During campaigning I was told that I would not get people's vote as I was a chamar [a derogatory name for Dalits]. So I filed my nomination in a non-Asian constituency and was able to win." He said it was customary for the Indian community to honour each new mayor - yet his achievement had not been recognised in that way. "Everyone in the Indian community knows how things are. It is there, and it will take a long time to die out. I recently discovered from my children that they suffered difficulties at school. It is only now, because the issue is being raised, that they chose to tell me. Given everything that has happened, I am very proud and thankful to God for what I have gained."
Harbans Lal Virde, general secretary of the west London religious association Buddha Dham, said he also faced workplace difficulties. "The non-Dalits in my community objected to my promotion and did not support me in my work. They did not like me as a supervisor. The non-Dalits presume that 'chamars' are good for nothing." One respondent, who asked to remain anonymous, said it was difficult to confront the problem. "At work there is no open discrimination; it is usually discreet. Most of the businesses are small - if you complain, the person who will listen to your complaint is from the higher caste, so no action is taken."
Researchers say some barriers are breaking down. In India, Dalits and non-Dalits rarely eat together, but 81% of those questioned said the restriction did not usually apply here. Piara Khabra, MP for Ealing Southall, accused researchers of exaggerating the extent of problems: "It is a big issue in India, but not here. There is a broader community and different traditions. People live happily together." He said many complainants may claim caste discrimination mistakenly or for political reasons. "I am the MP and people come to me who are from the lowest castes."
In one employment tribunal case alleging discrimination based on caste, a factory worker claimed he had been unfairly disciplined at work and then dismissed because non-Dalits complained about him. In another, a healthcare worker claimed he was victimised when his supervisor, who had been friendly, discovered his caste.
mineguruji,
thanks for the UK story. Very illuminating..I'd known of this for a long time.
In the U.S. too Indians organise themselves along caste lines.
About Venugopal..I hinted that I think he had been acting like a politician..
Well this is a good balanced story.
wonder if ay indian paper will publish it.
Linking to my blog is a problem still
Good, clean fun?
Actually, if you call on them for making those jokes, they would be like, "sheesh! cant you take a joke!"
They actually think it is good, clean fun when they make racist/sexist jokes...
hey mad hat..
please read some of the recent comments on the previous post..
Few hidden agenda media representative are crying hoarse over Dr Venugopal's sacking. They are terming it as politician's interferrence and such.
But I don't know where were these media representatives when Dr Venugopal stopped being a doctor and started playing politician.
So Dr Venugopal, what goes around comes around. You asked for it !
interferrence = interference*
pro-reservations,
welcome back.
God save the depressed classes in this country.
lol....
@obcvoice: I am following the comment thread. I will respond soon...
An entire post has been washed out due to power surge.
mineguruji,
pardon..kya hua?
I wrote a complete post on the status of OBCs in Jammu and Kashmir and how the upper castes have contrived to deprive them of their due share.
But, a sudden upsurge led to loss of data on my system.
I had also done a caste profile of the Jammu University in detail.
Ghetto in medical hostel
- Quota students in AIIMS allege being driven into a corner
CHARU SUDAN KASTURI, July 5, 2006, New Delhi.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060705/asp/frontpage/story_6439173.asp
(‘F*** off from this wing’, says a warning scribbled on the hostel door of
an AIIMS student from a weaker section).
PS:The Photograph which is carried in the Telegraph is not pasted here. You
can click on the link given above and see it.
New Delhi, July 4: Parts of All India Institute of Medical Sciences hostels
are turning into SC/ST ghettos. Reserved category students said they were being
“hunted out of the remaining rooms” by upper-caste students and driven to two
floors of the hostels.
An engraved message on the door of Room No. 49 (Hostel 1) bears testimony to
their concern. The inscription, spiced with abusive language, asks the room’s
occupant Umakant — a scheduled caste student — to “get out of this (hostel)
wing”.
With almost half the reserved category students since seeking reallocation of
their rooms, the message seems to have worked.
The top floors of Hostel No. 4 and 5 of the country’s premier medical school
have 32 rooms in all, of which 27 are occupied by SC/ST students. Of the 250
students at the institute, 55 are SC/ST.
Hostel records show that 22 of the students currently in the “ghetto” moved
there only in the wake of the surcharged atmosphere of the anti-reservation
agitation that started with the human resource development ministry unveiling
plans for a quota for the Other Backward Classes.
“Many more want to shift there but cannot because there aren’t enough rooms
for everyone,” said a student.
AIIMS authorities said they would take “necessary action”.
Sub-dean Dr Sunil Chumber said he had himself faced discrimination during his
college years. “My room was broken into, and things destroyed, because I came
from a reserved category,” he said.
The SC/ST students said they were scared of the consequences of their
identities becoming known for speaking out against discrimination.
A senior resident doctor, who belongs to the scheduled castes, said: “We are
so scared here because the director (P. Venugopal) himself is supporting them
(the anti-quota agitators). We have nowhere to go to complain.”
Resident Doctors’ Association president Dr Vinod Patro, however, said there
was “no discrimination on the AIIMS campus”. “It is a figment of their
imagination,” Patro, who has been leading the anti-reservation agitation at
AIIMS, said.
Some SC/ST students alleged that to keep them from revealing the
discrimination, they were often “failed in examinations”, which acted as a
threat.
“Every year on an average five of the 11 reserved category students are held
back,” a resident doctor said, citing his own case, where he was one of those
failed in the first year.
AIIMS rules say a student who fails twice over the five years of study cannot
pursue his or her post-graduation.
The students said that for fear of their careers being destroyed they did not
want to “get into the bad books of the authorities”.
“The students have no choice but to bear this humiliation quietly and pass out
in five years,” said Dr Vikas Bajpai of the Medicos’ Forum for Equal
Opportunity, a pro-reservation group.
A meeting of the apex decision-making body of AIIMS is scheduled tomorrow in
which the ouster of Venugopal could figure. Union health minister Anmbumani
Ramadoss, who wants him to go, will come face to face with the director for the
first time since the stand-off over the anti-quota agitation.
These upper castes are going to be paid in the same coin.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mineguruji,
'..wrote a complete post on the status of OBCs in Jammu and Kashmir and how the upper castes have contrived to deprive them of their due share.'
can you do it again..? seems important to me..as it is, the knowledge on profile of obcs in any particular state isn't readily available to ousiders.. attempts like yours could be useful. especially to those who live outside j&k.
Reservations have just created a OObnoxiously BBegging CClass!
There was, once, a man. A very capable man. He managed people very well.
He had a younger brother. He did a lot for this younger brother. He reserved
some contracts for his younger brother. Even though he did not merit it. He
reserved a good job in a telecom company which his brother did not bother to
live upto. He reserved a flat for his younger brother. He reserved a gun and
a license for the gun for his younger brother.
As time went on and his own family grew, he could not give as much attention
to his younger brother. He had other members of his family to reserve things
for.
His younger brother felt angry. He had developed the belief that he had a
right to things. Events followed their course
anonymous,
'There was, once, a man. A very capable man. He managed people very well. ....'
are you looking for ekta kapoor's blog?
Well certainly, i will do a better post this time. Work offline and then post it.
Dont worry.
Backward classes are most depressed in Jammu and Kashmir.
They were not allowed to buy land till 1970.
Scheduled castes got reservations in 165, after sustained struggle.
Scheduled Tribes got this status just in 1990, despite having 80 percent population and even more.
Caste, race, genetic and environment
The realtionship between caste, genetics and individual IQ is very much there, since it has not been researched in India few people if at all are aware of it.
However, the US and other European countries have done a lot of work in this field.
As far as the consensus among intelligence researchers is that IQ differences among individuals of the same race reflect (1) real, (2) functionally/socially significant, and (3) substantially genetic differences in the general intelligence factor.
A consensus also exists that average IQ differences among races reflect (1) real and (2) significant differences.
However, it is a matter of debate whether IQ differences among races in a given country are (3a) entirely environmental or (3b) genetic.
According to these studies Black-White-East Asian differences in IQ, reaction time, brain size and other physiological variables (such as skull structure, and degree of convolution of the brain) in the United States and a few other developed countries (e.g. UK, Japan).
Larger brain size and higher IQ of East Asians than Whites is a challenge for the culture-only theory. Genetics are known to influence brain structure (Thompson et al. 2001) and some aspects of cognition (Berman and Noble 1995).
Brain size correlates with intelligence (McDaniel 2005), and that correlation is mediated entirely by genetic factors (Posthuma et al. 2002).
Studies suggesting that IQ heritability and gene-environment interactions within races are the same for Blacks and Whites. That is, no race-specific statistical factors, such as an effect of White racism, have been identified in such analyses. The IQ gap exists even among middle- and upper-class Black and White families where within-race heritabilities are high and shared family effects are near zero.
American Blacks have a lower average IQ than Hispanic and Native American groups, which are more socio-economically deprived. For example, the Inuit, who live in the Arctic, have higher average IQs than North American Blacks (Berry 1966; MacArthur 1968) despite being extremely poor (Vernon 1965; Vernon 1979).
Ashkenazi Jews have often been persecuted and discriminated against, but they still display the highest average IQ of any ethnic group, as well as SAT scores higher than those of non-Jewish Caucasians. Rowe 2005, pp. 67-68 argues that this counters arguments that depressed IQ scores of African Americans are due to discrimination or prejudice. Similarly, Jensen 1998b, p. 510, points to the examples of Chinese, Japanese, Jews, and East Indians, stating that they have been minorities, discriminated against, or even persecuted, yet do not do poorly on g-loaded tests. Murray and Herrnstein 1994 make similar arguments.
In addition to the genetics, there are some cultural factors also which have been identified by the experts as reasons for the low IQ and backwardness of Americans.
Cultural explanations
Many anthropologists have argued that intelligence is a cultural category; some cultures emphasize speed and competition more than others, for example. During WWI African-Americans from the north tested higher than those from the south. This could be because African-Americans in the north had received more formal education (see Race: Science and Politics, written by Ruth Benedict in 1940). Thousands of ethnographic studies indicate that innate capacities for cultural evolution are equal among all human populations. The American Anthropological Association has endorsed a statement deriding all studies of race and intelligence .
It has been suggested that Black culture disfavors academic achievement and fosters an environment that is damaging to IQ (Boykin 1994). Likewise, it is argued that a persistence of racism reinforces this negative effect. John Ogbu[1] has developed a hypothesis that the condition of being a "caste-like minority" affects motivation and achievement, depressing IQ. However, Arthur Jensen has criticized these arguments on the grounds that they cannot explain the higher scores of East Indians and East Asians.[2] Even proponents of the view that the IQ gap is caused partly by genetic differences, such as Arthur Jensen, recognize that non-genetic factors are likely involved. Indeed, one author has compiled a list of over one hundred possible causes of the Black-White IQ gap.[3] These include the following:
lack of reading material in the home
poor cultural amenities in the home
weak structural integrity of the home
foreign language in the home
low preschool attendance
no encyclopedia in the home
low level of parental education
little time spent on homework
low parental educational desires for child
low parental interest in school work
negative child self-concept (self-esteem)
low child interest in school and reading
However, such factors have not been found to have an effect on IQ that lasts to adulthood among members of the same race (see below).
I posted this YFE hyderabad as they had asked me whats the relationship between caste and genetics.
Why this silence ? Is there a storm brewing?
wonder how many backward caste people Dr. Venugopal has saved...quite A few. u guys must quit making a fuss and look towards working for seats rather than wishing the government enforced more and more quotas
genetics has nothing to do with caste. you cannot make out who i am with a drop of my blood and reading my deoxyribonucleicacid chromatins. everyone is equal and caste is very suerficial. BUT, everyone must work equally hard for what they want, not wish that the government give them more reservations. we can forgive and forget, and chose the path that favours OUR results. what can today's upper caste do for what their forefathers were responsible for. taking revenge is inhuman and makes the BCs just as bad as the brahmins of the past. they are being left out in todays world, true, butjust a little bit of hard work, similar to what brahmins are forced to put in nowadays will make them prosper, they have an advantage. they have special seats already. why as for more? why get greedy, when we are capable of working for it ourselves?
the capability of ones brain grows when one yearns to work hard, when one is willing to work for something come what may, and is not determined, in 90% of the cases, by birth. in fact, castes do NOT show different races as the aryan Invasion theory has been discarded, and we all belong to the same race, but somewhere down the line, some people took over, unfortunately, and made castes, which sucks. so there is actually no big diference except in skin colour, which IS NOT A SUPERIORITY determining thing, but because the brahmins stay home more and do not require melanin, not like the farmenr, who are in teh sun all day long, slogging. thus, even skin colour is purely biological. do not seperate India!
A recent survey shows that the the demand for graduate and post graduate seats is increasing day by day...so much so that the seat will have to be increased by 10 times int he next time else a huge number of students would either move out of the country or end up sitting at home as 'school paas' fellas.IN such a scenario, quotas make a fools' solution to education problems.Any sane person would oppose the quotas.
-sheetal
who was denied admission in DU despite securing 87% aggregate.
**seats will have to be increased ten times int he next 5 yrs**
please correct the above error in my previous comment.
Hey genetic, empirical research shows that IQ is a function of genes and environment, both play an important role in making up an individual.
The above research has been done by Americans and Eurpoeans, not by any backward caste social scientist.
The research clearly shows that genes have a direct effect on the mental profile and achievements of an individual, a clan and a caste and a race.
Why dont you accept the simple facts?
I agree that genes alone are not responsible and they work in tandem with environment.
As far Sheetal says that seats are to be increased, no doubt, we agree.
Backward castes do not like the govt stranglehold on education sector, and want that demand should meet supply.
But, clearly till this does not happens, the quota system is our only saviour.
As far as Venugopal is concerned, the court has helped him, he may have saved many BC lives, but i can also tell you about numerous BC and SC/ST docs, who have saved as many upper caste lives.
you are too stubborn. you need not depend too much on the qota sysem, you have ur own capabilities, im sure the environment provided to u is capable of putting you in a good position in life. dont unknowingly cacuse a civil war, like caste, one canno help but live with the genes hes got unless a genetic engineer like me comes to the rescue, but even I cant change ur thoughts, but i am trying. i love India, dont cause a rift. i beg of u
anonymous,
'wonder how many backward caste people Dr. Venugopal has saved...quite A few. u guys must quit making a fuss and look towards working for seats rather than wishing the government enforced more and more quotas..'
wonder how many and upper caste people were killed during the strike..
i hope you stop being smugly ignorant and start thinking about how many backward class students were deprived of basic education to finance the higher education of each upper caste student who studied at the iits/iims in the last fifty years and other institutions before you start talking about work..
it's time you started working, for a change, to welcome backward class students in those institutions.
genetic engineer,
'...they are being left out in todays world, true, butjust a little bit of hard work, similar to what brahmins are forced to put in nowadays will make them prosper, they have an advantage. they have special seats already. why as for more? why get greedy, when we are capable of working for it ourselves?..'
so you think brahmins work hard while the lower castes loaf off? you seriously need to rethink your prejudices.
genetic engineer,
'...but because the brahmins stay home more and do not require melanin, not like the farmenr, who are in teh sun all day long, slogging. thus, even skin colour is purely biological. do not seperate India!
so it's the shudra works hard now...
i think you need to stay out of the sun.
sheetal,
'IN such a scenario, quotas make a fools' solution to education problems.Any sane person would oppose the quotas.'
that's what we are doing.. we oppose the unlimited quotas which have been extended to the upper castes since independence.
genetic engineer,
'i love India, dont cause a rift. i beg of u '
even a small measure like reservations that seeks to bridge the yawning divide between the privileged upper castes and the deprived classes in education ... is being opposed so very vehemently by people like you...
who's caused the rift? and who wants to continue it?
Great OBC voice, you have been wonderful. Man, i was busy for a day, so could not come on net. But you have done great work mate. I am acquring more facts on the status of OBCs and SC/STs in Jammu and Kashmir.
I condemn the attacks on the innocent people by the terrorists. They dont have any religion, they are enemy of entire humanity.
Arjun appoints PS Krishnan as adviser
Arjun appoints PS Krishnan as adviser
[ 10 Jul, 2006 2128hrs ISTPTI ] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1725209.cms
NEW DELHI: With the reservation issue entangled in controversies, HRD Minister Arjun Singh has appointed a retired bureaucrat and an expert on the subject to advise him on the 27 per cent reservation for OBCs in elite educational institutions.
PS Krishnan, a 1956 batch IAS officer who headed the Welfare Ministry at the time when Prime Minister VP Singh had announced in 1990 implementation of 27 per cent job reservation in government for OBCs, has been appointed as Honorary Adviser to the Minister to specifically advise on the reservation issue.
"My only condition to the government was take my advice and give a serious thought to it. Do not fix any price on it," said Krishnan, who had in 1979 signed the order appointing BP Mandal Commission which had recommended 27 per cent job reservation for OBCs in government. That had formed the basis for VP Singh's government's decision.
Claiming that nobody knew the issue better than him, he said that some critics to the OBC reservation in educational institutions write without knowing the "a, b, c of the subject and without reading the Mandal Commission recommendations".
obcvoise, what makes u think i am an upper caste? is it my views or my way of puttig it forth or what? no, i am am very much a shudra. and i am not saying that brahmins work harder, they are being forsed to today, face it. i dont say we dont, they are just burdened with more but they do over come it. when they can work without reservations, why cant we? are we weak? we can all live equally in a place where we dont have some getting more priority.
i do not think reservations are a small issue, they are BIG and we need to do something as we are very much capable of showing the world that we do not need special arrangements, YFE is partly right ( i am NOT siding with anyone) they want everyone to be equal, i do not think that is something objectionable, the quotaas are kind of unfair to the general castes. we shouldnt kill merit and become selfish. we have worked hard for ages, we can do for a little bit longer, and not beg
genetic engineer,
'we shouldnt kill merit and become selfish. we have worked hard for ages, we can do for a little bit longer, and not beg...'
merit is what an institution imparts to a student..not what a candidate brings to it in the form of advantages gained from priliged access to resources..
all the institutions now facing this round of reservations are state-owned.. the obcs have as much right to access those resources as everyone else. they have been denied this right for fifty years, all the while bearing their share of burden of running these institutions..
are you trying to tell me that these institutions were created for only the upper castes? I guess, you're not. So what the history of students at these institutions tells you then is that..they should have been in the very early itself when they discovered they were catering exclusively to upper caste students.. the existence of these institutions without obcs was unjustified. is unjustified.
you think the brahmins work harder? and the shudras don't? i think you have to rethink your prejudices..before start making judgments about the 'rightness/wrongness' of reservations.
and begging? whatever gave you that idea? we're taking them..
it's only the upper castes among the political/ruling classes who're making a show of giving..because they have no other alternative.
mineguruji,
some of your recent posts are great. specially the article by sharad yadav.. plan to use it in a forthcoming post.
LOL, u r misguided. everyone needs a fair chance, and u r asking for more than that. not fair. and u think all backward classes need quotas.no, everyone can work for it, some are lazy and ask for reservations, like you.
genetic engineer,
please tell me, which part of my response proves that i am misguided?
do i have to point out only one? it is a waste even commenting here...
genetic engineer,
'it is a waste even commenting here... '
that's one part...go on, any more illuminating logic?
The uppercastes will not listen to the voice of the depresssed and the downtrodden.
how sad, mineguruji, why dont u try doing something about it...will chocolate help ur mood? aww...
well i had like some moet hennesy along with some blak cheese, thanks mate.
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