Wipro maachis
Azim Premji says: "We have no alternative but to hire the best talent available within India and the best talent available globally to man our positions - critical positions, non-critical positions, (and) programming positions".
A few days ago, Headlines Today, the television channel, did a story on a massive job racket in the IT/ITES industry in Bangalore. 'Job agents' who arrange/manage tests and interviews for aspirants at any of the top companies, including Wipro, Infosys, Satyam, IBM etc., disclosed on hidden camera how easy it is for them to 'provide' jobs at these companies for a price. The racket, of which HR Managers at these companies are a key component, has 'provided', until now, jobs for thousands of dubious applicants in the industry. (The job racket isn't confined to Bangalore alone - folks in the business know that it is spread all over the south and some cities up north). The top managers at these companies pretend not to be aware of this scam.. But the truth is, they prefer to look the other way because.. they need 'people'. And lots of them. And apart from certain basic skills, they don't really look for much else. And, of course, the top bosses all have their own extra-curricular agendas like running down reservations and collecting awards - who has the time or the inclination to be squeamish about 'merit'?
posted by obc voice @ 12:54 PM
122 Comments:
Obcvoice
The best weapon against logic is ignorance.So you seem to persuade evrybody here.Rhetorical questions are persuasive, aren't they?
manee,
what's your logic?
Rhetorical questions are persuasive, aren't they?
you are very right about this job racket. i must tell you that majority of people getting good jobs is through, sifarish, bribe and caste connections.
dear OBC,
when will these people learn to live and let live. There is no hope of this in near future. I am going to make a study of the people holding top govt jobs in India and find out how many are from depressed classes.
However, there is one problem and that is how to identify these castes. But, i shall try anyway.
manee,
I repeat : what's your logic?
mineguruji,
'when will these people learn to live and let live.'
I've very often pondered over this question. When they oppose even small measures to support the deprived classes such as reservations with such vehemence.. would anything more substantial ever be possible in this country?
I think your project idea is a very good one.. it needs to be done.
to mr mine guruji,
you please go ahead with ur project. but please also add how many of them r still using reservatiions for their children inspite of holding top posts in government.
Its a pity you still haven't comprehended the 'logic' or perhaps you call it by some other name.
P.S. dont repeat the question...again.Rhetorical questions are not persuasive to me anymore.
u can also study how many students who joined MBBS by using caste quota were from non-convent school, entered without any coaching classes, have their parents illiterate......
Having had a hard time trying to stuff my point into your dogmatic head, i have this to say about you...
Your wisdom is like vision from the corner of the eye. It seems
to exist, but disappears when examined.
You can try redefining 'logic' for those of us who have no hint about it,would you,Oh Almighty OBCvoice?
:-)
Isn't Premji the same person who couple of years ago asked the government the tax more the IT professionals and less the income of the IT companies ?
So much for an Ethics !!
Please omit the 'an' in the last line above.
mineguruji,
there are some stats on castewise employment in central government in the post-mandal figures i linked to in my previous post.
manee,
'Its a pity you still haven't comprehended the 'logic' or perhaps you call it by some other name.'
Let me see- this is what you said in some of your recent comments :
'My contacts with OBCVOICE always leave me with a certain amount of contempt for his philosophies, who seems to rely on the assumption that, if you can string together enough vague and high-sounding rhetoric(also primitive data figures,if possible), you can ignore both
(1) reasonings for why reservations should NOT be there
(2) and logic.'
Is that your logic - contempt for whatever i say?
'I wonder how many of you have read his previous posts.
He is against the teachings of Lord Krishna and dubs him as a 'caste propagator'
and calls Pt.Jawaharla Nehru a second rate thinker.
I would request all of you to give OBCvoice a standing ovation.'
Is that your logic- heckling me?
' Hopefully you dont consider yourself and your opinions based on YOUR findings superior to Mr.P Radhakrishnan? '
Is that your logic- taunts?
'to Obcvoice,
Am I superior to MR.P Radhakrishnan?
This proves your distorted vision...You view all the people in the wrong state of superiority or inferiority...
Ah... By the way,Its really getting interesting talking to you... :-)'
Is that your logic- more personal insults?
'to the rest of the people(who make sense)...
I love psychology and its so thrilling to decode the mysterious psyches of unusual people.
Nowadays Im working on the subject you people call 'Obcvoice'...
trust me...he is damn interesting.'
Is that your logic- calling me names?
' Why is noone bothered about raising the overall standard of their living through concrete methods...but running after reservation malaise like crazy...?
Dont reply with crap.'
Is that your logic- abuse?
What makes you think you can throw around all kinds of ill-mannered abuse and still expect a response to questions I've already responded to?
pro-reservations,
i think so.
i dont understand, what do you want to imply from this post??
are u comparing reservations with admission by bribe????
anonymous,
i am saying there always have been reservations everywhere for those with money and ..from upper castes.
were these my first comments or you have forgotten the rest ? why not copy paste some of my very first ones ?
Have i never tried to understand you or your opinion?
Its never about me convincing you or you convincing me. BUt talking in a healthy way to reach a conclusion. I know when the taunts, the abuses, the personal comments and reamrks began and who began them.
Copy pasting is an easy job and Im skipping doing that knowing it wont be fruitful.
May there be justice.
Justice to OBCs or to general catagory.
Nobody's interests should suffer and noone should be given priviledges which hamper the opportunities of the other.
Complicating a simple question with rhetoric and volumes of data,like you do, is not a great thing. But simplifying a complicated situation with open mindedness and tolerance of contrary opinion is what really counts.
Your opposite opinion is not what made me indifferent to you,but your own 'subtle*' taunts made me feel you dont feel.
(*subtle- so that u can escape the direct blame but u know what im talking about.Im not copy pasting,but i may if you say).
manee,
'were these my first comments or you have forgotten the rest ? why not copy paste some of my very first ones ?'
I had ended my previous response with ..
'What makes you think you can throw around all kinds of ill-mannered abuse and still expect a response to questions I've already responded to?'
the key phrase here is 'questions I've already responded to ..'
As for the excuses for your abuse..i invite you to copy-paste wherever you think ..i started it. If you still think you had a good enough excuse to respond with abuse..and continue with it on every post..
The fact remains - abuse is the only 'logical' weapon you seem to be left with - when was the last time you actually posted a comment that was on-topic..something relevant to the subject/post I had written about? What are you indulging in except 'rhetoric'?
Comments relevant to the topic would be much appreciated.
OBCvoice ,
Give us one good reason that we must write in context to the topic.
why should we write when all you will do is scoff at it?
why sould we write when anything we write ,any article we post or link to or any data that is not in tune with your thought is ridiculed with the most contempt?
go back to all your posts ..just see how you have reacted when the guy called Frank Kane or Insane or amit or manee or siddesh put some points in front of you and all you reacted was" Welcome to mother earth"
Why should we write when if pointed that you OBC's also look down on the SC i.e Mahar community all you have to say is why dont we feel shame about ourselves
justify one bad thing with another..thats all you do.
yes we agree that there was terribly inhumane treatment to the lower caste in the past and may be even now. But that does not negate the fact that for a long time now a mockery has been made of the reservation system where some economically sound people are "backward" where the creamy layer OBC's selfishly take the seats of the really needy OBC.
No one is a saint here..Not the upper caste and also not the OBC's.
But no you will not accept that at all..and then your cronies also laud you for this tunneled vision.
I challenge you to say that not a single person has put infront of you some rational points.
and by the way what makes you think that everything you write is correct and there is not a ounce that can be challenged? what kind of a concieted person are you?
go to the history of your comments ..each anti reservationnist tried to first show you the other side to which you have gladly turned your back.
All you and your friends will say"
Hahah what was your point? what was your logic? which world are you in?
First learn the quality of humility .Hot balloons usually burst six feet above the ground.
First learn to read both sides instead of considering yourself as the genius of this topic.
Have you read the story abt the "Emperor with no clothes"
I can draw close parallels to him and you. It needs a lot of people to shout " Emperor has no clothes untill you realise your true concieted state of thinking"
A frog's paradise is what your clog is about.
All those who find it worthless what is discussed here and think this is place for cronies, should awaken themself up.
No one said that this is a place where you have to throw up your hallowed learning. If you don't like then there are thousand other platforms for voicing your valued opinion. So please use them and spare the name calling and other lowly forms of debate here.
You don't agree with the idea, that's perfectly okay but then the onus is on YOU all to decide to be here or not.
So please start taking responsibility of your actions.
Of course this is not my blog and I have no right to suggest who should be here, but when someone tries to engulf everyone in their hysterical name calling tirade then I could atleast put my humble suggestion.
Yeah Questions you have already responded to.Responded to with rhetoric and taunts and perhaps the things you call 'abuse'.
And yes I would still prefer to talk my mind with people,anti or pro reservation,who know how to satisfy one's query with convincing logic and not driving the whole point towards grandiloquent belaboring.
PLus,I find copy pasting older stuff a childish thing to do.And my copy pasting would lead to more copy pastings and would again entangle us in the never ending arguments.
"i invite you to copy-paste wherever you think"
Thanks but no thanks.
I'd prefer healthy discussion.
"What are you indulging in except 'rhetoric'?"
Perhaps thats the language you understand.Am I the only one who has tried to talk with you ? Tell me how many anti reservation people have you dealt with and what % (since you are good at data stuff) out of them have you satisfied ?
And IM not blindly 'abusing' and spreading rhetoric all over your blog. Reading all previous comments,I have seen that mineguruji has very amicably talked the issue with all the other people and madhat still makes a point wherever and whatever he writes.He doesnt blindly blame the UCs of snobbish attitude or heartlessness or whatever you have blamed them for.
i would prefer to discuss the issue with them than argue with you.
@obcvoice: email me at dastheleper@gmail.com
State your argument precisely first. Is it that these allegedly sold jobs require merit, but merit is being bypassed, and so the defenders of merit have an explanation to give? Or is it that these jobs don't require merit, and (logical leap) therefore few jobs do, and therefore the sidelining of merit is justified?
@arun: I think this is obvious but what obcvoice is pointing out is the hypocrisy of the same company, Wipro, whose CEO resists reservations on the concept of merit is found to be hiring people in manner that is pretty much detrimental to hiring the 'best'.
arun,
I want Mr.Premji and other 'meritophiles' to define merit precisely first ..and implement them.
Thanks, for commenting on the post.
madhat,
just noticed your comment after posting mine. You've hit the nail on the head.
majority of IT graduates appointed by wipro or any other big company are through campus interview which is without any jo racket, and such instances are rare. even then one wrong canot explain other wrong
Pro-reservation,
"Yes, I had seen the interview.. and shekhar gupta should be looking for some 'chullu bhar pani'.. by now. "
"Naturally, we are going to win this battle, and the next one and the next one and so on.
Imagine what will happen when a government with majority of OBCs comes to power in centre, what will happen to you guys then. Dont worry, we wont turn you to scheduled castes."
According to you this was a very "high" form of debate?? These are just 2 thoughts from the most recent comments.And you tell me, mine I engulfed people in mindless tirade
SO now you are telling me I am not supposed to comment here?
Which means you have every right to get upset and angry over me trying to be against what is being written here.You have the privilige for emotions ,anger , feelings, against someone having thoughts that are not in line with yours..and I dont?? SO much for equality.
Just the way you feel that if i am so upset about this then I must go and use another platform, the same way i can say to you, just ignore what i write?? why is that so difficult for u?
It is difficult for you and so is it for me.Why should I tolerate someone badmouthing my caste?
Just like you guys dont think twice before calling all kind of names to the upper caste,even when somany people are trying to put some rational points , then why are you expecting such saintly behaviour from us?
I say , u go back to the comments of the previous blog where Frank kane or Insane , or manee or siddesh had put their points and tell me what was wrong with that argument.Why did OBC voice instead of replying to the suggestions scoff and say "Welcome to mother earth"That was a high form of debate?
really high form of debate????
you need a reality check..and untill this guy puts in comment moderation and leaves open space for others to commentI have every right to say what I want.
you cannot stop me from that.Your backwardness does not give you the right to take away my right to defend my stand.I may not take a dictionary and sit to write flowery language. But I will make every effort to show the complete disregard to listen to the other side ,scoffing others points and considering urselves the highest form of "debate" going on ..
Pro-reservation:
some more jewels from the mout of your friend obc voice
The nautanki has started now
And Baqwas Dutt(Barkha Dutt) speaks again of the alleged 'siege mentality' of the OBCs.
obcvoice,
this 'manee' character seems to be a vile, vituperative idiot who always talks as if it's got a stick up it's ass. Please don't waste your time with it. You don't have to answer it's constant barrage of nonsensical rhetoric. Ignore this idiot.
well, whatever ananymous says, one thing is sure that he has been the most voluble champion of upper caste voice.
However, being a upholder of the upper caste Hinduism , he must be knowing that an individual or a society has to pay for its karma.
Infact, Indian philosophers opine that one has to pay for the Karmas done even in the past life.
As such, the logic is simple the upper caste hindus have to pay for their bad karma in this world and also the next.
So, they must understand that reservations is like taking a dip in Ganges for the upper castes to absolve of their sins.
Dont, they want to go to heaven, and if they continue to oppose the reservations, they will be sinning heavily.
Isnt this right
It is high time the upper caste people realize that they have to pay for the
"I think this is obvious but what obcvoice is pointing out is the hypocrisy of the same company, Wipro, whose CEO resists reservations on the concept of merit is found to be hiring people in manner that is pretty much detrimental to hiring the 'best'."
It is a massive leap of logic to deduce 'hypocrisy' of Premji or Wipro from the *alleged* (ie, unproven) allegation that *some* HR managers in that company are selling jobs.
Ladies and gentlemen,
Untill now if I felt anger on reading a few comments I could not stop myself from falling off the chair from the
SHOW-STEALING-MIND-BLOWING explanation given by mine guruji.
U made my day Buddy..
Pro-reservation:
Wonderful example of the "high" form and standard of debate going on..Appreciate your support for this supreme logic...
mine gurujis bakwas just explains his frustration for not putting any good point in favor of reservation on caste basis, esp for those who have already used it once. infact i am sure he himself must have lost in competition to some upper caste guy. and one thing is sure you can reduce the no of upper caste doctors and engineers but u cannot prervent them from rising on top because a student from upper caste proves his worth and gets his seat by scoring above all reserved cat students, and everybody knows that , even those from backward caste......
premji used to sell vegetable oil. He is a bania what does he know of humanity except profits. Vivek paul turned his company big and now he is basking in his glory.
"this 'manee' character seems to be a vile, vituperative idiot who always talks as if it's got a stick up it's ass."
nice one. Ofcourse, Lower caste don't have an A$$...they are super humans who are born without one and also without idioticity,vile and other human vices and every word they say is to be cast in gold and treated as the gospel of nothing but the truth, for they have the wisdom which the lesser species of retards called 'upper caste' can never think of...ah, the paradise of the Gods.
"Dont, they want to go to heaven, and if they continue to oppose the reservations, they will be sinning heavily.
Isnt this right"
whom are you trying to convince??
"I want Mr.Premji and other 'meritophiles' to define merit precisely first ."
What is "merit" depends on the context.
For instance, in the context of IIT-JEE, the more meritorious you are the higher your rank.
I think OBCVOice did not yet read the explanation of Mine guruji, a person whom he had once in a comment called his "biggest" source of information.
I would pay anything to see his expressions when he reads this karma crap.
a True Kodak moment.
" premji used to sell vegetable oil. He is a bania"
muslim.
your arguments lack merit, minegruji.
arun,
'It is a massive leap of logic to deduce 'hypocrisy' of Premji or Wipro from the *alleged* (ie, unproven) allegation that *some* HR managers in that company are selling jobs.'
I was pointing to a news story on national television (Headlines today)..this was telecast last week. I wasn't able to the link to the write-up by the reporter concerned (they usually write about stories they telecast on channel's sites) but wasn't able to get through the aajtak site to headlines today. i suggest you try to verify through your own sources. friends, i know in the IT/ITES business, have confirmed the existence of these 'job agents'. Some of them knew about them for the last two years. And yes, jobs in Wipro,and other companies, are for sale for the right price. You don't have to trust me - check on your own. The news story brought out even the rate list. It said there are ...lots of agents in Bangalore alone and some of them,individually, 'place' as many 25-30 aspirants in a month. The racket is not small.
As for the leap of logic - the Wipro spokesman did confirm reports of wrongdoing - and suggested some action had been taken. His attitude confirmed the lack of seriousness of the company in dealing with the problem. The need for 'people' is the all-riding logic now with IT companies.
arun,
we're talking about premji's definition here.
Anyway, If merit is context-specific, evaluation should also factor in the background of an applicant.
But all the anti-reservationists I've read until now have sought to define merit in very absolute terms.. you seem to disagree. I think you should discuss 'merit' with your fellow ant-reservationists and arrive at a consensus. But then again, doesn't consensus itself represent a relative value..? Anyway, I leave it to you experts.
"premji used to sell vegetable oil. He is a bania what does he know of humanity except profits. Vivek paul turned his company big and now he is basking in his glory"
Do u mean someone selling vegetable oil lacks ability to think and empathise?
Do you guys have a problem with someone being rich? whats wrong if someone basks in the glory of a company that he turned big with his effort and 'merit'??
Ya so premji sold oil? so what?are intellectuals always supposed to be khadi clad? kolhapuri chappal clad?
Your ideas are so clear.You have no problem calling names to a person twice your age and saying he does not understand a thing, and expect everyone to think that you at your age have grasped the whole situation to perfection!!!!
GROW up and come back
"premji used to sell vegetable oil. He is a bania what does he know of humanity except profits. Vivek paul turned his company big and now he is basking in his glory"
Do u mean someone selling vegetable oil lacks ability to think and empathise?
Do you guys have a problem with someone being rich? whats wrong if someone basks in the glory of a company that he turned big with his effort and 'merit'??
Ya so premji sold oil? so what?are intellectuals always supposed to be khadi clad? kolhapuri chappal clad?
Your ideas are so clear.You have no problem calling names to a person twice your age and saying he does not understand a thing, and expect everyone to think that you at your age have grasped the whole situation to perfection!!!!
GROW up and come back
anonymous,
re-read mineguruji's comment on 'karma'. the message is in the tone.
As such, the logic is simple the upper caste hindus have to pay for their bad karma in this world and also the next.
OBC Voice, what tone do you want me to understand here?
"re-read mineguruji's comment on 'karma'. the message is in the tone."
ok everyone, dig into your religious/spiritual guides and please post what you think is YOUR karma. This is getting hell interesting.
Oh My God!!
There is a message in what mine guruji said!!!
I missed it!!! where where where??
" If merit is context-specific, evaluation should also factor in the background of an applicant. "
How are context and background related?
What background are you looking for when selecting a batsman for the Indian cricket team?
anonymous,
Haven't you heard of irony? He's using your own theories to make his point.
arun,
are colleges and cricket teams comparable 'things'?
Damn!! I over-estimated OBC-Voice.
I thought he would be shocked at the karma -bull shit and will distance himself from this logic..
But no!! he squeezed himself out and made some sermon-like statement about a message being there in "tone" of some crap that mine guruji wrote.
I am sure mine guruji is trying t find that message too at this moment,
OBCVoice, u will make a great politician
Haven't you heard of irony? He's using your own theories to make his point.
When did I ever even talk about Hinduism and it's beliefs.
I believe for time in memorial religion be it any Hinduism, Islam or christianity has done more bad than good.
SO i never used any such theories.
Dont try to be smart with me
"He's using your own theories to make his point."
...which is?
all upper caste do yourself a favour and change your religion and save yourself from such theories. lest you see your 'karma monster' let loose by mineguruji chasing you.
anonymous,
he meant you as a 'representative' of the upper castes.
OBC VOice,
I am ok with the representative of Upper caste stuff, whats with the living in hell?? and dip in Ganges commandment!
'Dont try to be smart with me.'
whichever godforsaken place you're writing from.. alaska or finland or.. there's some lovely rain outside my window..so i urge you to tone down the compliments so that the mood isn't spoiled.
anonymous,
'I am ok with the representative of Upper caste stuff, whats with the living in hell?? and dip in Ganges commandment!'
part of the whole karma baggage - isn't it?
SO only uppper caste people are gonna be accountable for bad karma and all OBC's dont? So you have a reservation there too??
obc voice-are colleges and cricket teams comparable 'things'
yes to some extent they are, success in both depends upon talent(which u think does not exist) and hardwork(how much are u willing for that). while talent in case of cricket depends with batting or bowling abilities and hard work on practise and refining ur skills. In college talent depends upon ur ability to grasp and understand the subject and hardwork depends upon how much effort in to grasp and remember the subject. in cricket also most of top players r from some acadamy ( which i am sure according to you backward caste cannot afford) . And everyone is aware of matchfixing and securing place in state and national team by using bribes and recommendations.
and according to you people if talent and hard work is not important then leave general catagory seats on basis of exams and reserved cat seats be distributed by lottory, and see what noise will be made by toppers among reserved seats!!!!
Interesting point OBSERVER.
Well instead of saying lottery, I suggest one thing.
Since OBCVOICE , mine-guruji and all other pro-reservationists think that marks are really not "merit" then as observer said leave the GC seats to marks
and then when alloting the reserved seats give preference to some kind of subcaste within the OBC's. May be even on economic basis. Like give preferrence to a poor OBC with 50% marks over the not-so-poor OBC with 70% marks.
Will love to see if in such a case merit will no longer be a reason to decide
"...reserved cat seats be distributed by lottory, and see what noise will be made by toppers among reserved seats"
back that!!!
OBCvoice remember you had been sent a link
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jun/13inter1.htm?q=np&file=.htm
And you replied:
manee,
I consider you superior to Mr.P.Radhakrishnan.. and his findings(?)
First commenter...,
Just one indicator of how broad his facts are.. Reservations actually started in 1821. And they were not for the lower castes.So what else is original about his 'findings'?
Well just one indicator that you dont read well is that there was no mention of 1821 in that article, the date that P.Radhakrishnan was mentioning was 1926. But you laughed at his words anyways.
to prove he was right I went to wikepedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action
Affirmative action has historically been implemented in India in the form of reservation or quotas in government positions, employment and education for lower castes and minorities. The first records of these policies are seen in the late 19th century in the princely states of Mysore in South India and Baroda and Kolhapur in western India. Reservations in government jobs were introduced in 1918 in Mysore in favour of a number of castes and communities that had little share in the administration. In another instance, upon petition from the Muslim community, the British government at the time made provisions in the Government of India acts of 1909 and 1919 granting Muslims share in the administration and other facilities. In the communal award of 1935, legislative seats were reserved for members of the Muslim, Sikh, Maratha, Parsi, Christian, European, and Anglo-Indian communities. In addition seats were reserved for depressed classes within the Hindu community. The scheduled castes were given 8.5 reservation in central services and other facilities in 1942. In independent India, provision for reservation in legislature was made in the constitution until 1960, recently extended until 2010. Provision for public services was made at the same time with no time limit. More recently in 1990, the implementation of the Mandal commissions' recommendations have been in the social and political limelight. Despite widespread agitation (mostly among students), reservation for the backward classes were upheld to the extent of 27 per cent (this was in addition to the 22.5% already reserved for scheduled castes and tribes, bringing the total of 'open' seats to only 50%).
You wanna laugh at wikepedia too?? go ahead I wont be surprised if you do
"You wanna laugh at wikepedia too?? go ahead I wont be surprised if you do"
ofcourse and why not?. After all its the 'upper caste' who have the POWER to influence every source of knowledge and media. And for your info,those who are not backward class are upper caste, this applies universally.Also upper caste = gold mines = access to internet = pooling into weiki = tripe.
didn't you know???
Also upper caste = gold mines = access to internet = pooling into weiki = tripe.
didn't you know???
I am assuming you are a OBC too. DO you have a gold mine that gave you internet acess?
Well since I am a upper caste fellow and dont exactly have enough money could you transfer some money to me . I will give u the routing number. Please help me to maintain the prejudice that all upper caste people are rich.
Also please can you direct me to these secret meetings of the upper caste where we decide our PR tactics?
anonymous,
'Just one indicator of how broad his facts are.. Reservations actually started in 1821. And they were not for the lower castes.So what else is original about his 'findings'?'
there is no mention of 1821 in that article because i was supplying you the date- to indicate how limited his facts are.. In the first quarter of the nineteenth century, the Company first started taking in Indian public servants..and they were mostly Upper caste folks.. Later this programme expanded and towards the end of the century schools and colleges set up by the British started accepting Upper Caste students..
Understand: wikipedia is compiled by people like you.. the net offers many more reliable sources..go there.
If someone is quoting wikipedia then one should know that is user edited repository. It never was meant to be any authentic source of any information whether pro or anti reservation.
Merit is always a relative quality and not something innate. So this merit has been disproportionately developed among different sections of society based on their social status and community. It is in context that discriminated class has taken the hit. Hence any exam which judges this merit will have discriminated classes disadvantaged.
Unfortunately I don't think there is any way to test something which does not get affected by societal life. If that would have been the case then no sections of society would have needed any reservation.
"wikipedia is compiled by people like you.. the net offers many more reliable sources..go there."
..then you won't mind quoting the reliable source of your information and it's compilers (with their caste)
Wow, i never thought that the Karma theory so much loved by the rich and upper caste theologicians of India will create so much ruckus in the minds of the upper caste bretheren.
The Karma theory has been used by the brahmins to support the caste hierarchy and to convert Indians into fatalistic people, who have come to believe that karma of past life is responsible for those, who are rich and miseries of poor.
And obviously the majority of the Indian poor come from the lower castes of India.
Definitely, their bad karma put them into the lower castes according to our brahmin brothers.
As far oili seller Premji is concerned, what i meant was that he still has the mentality of the neighbourhood bania, who is predominantly sood-khor and sucks the blood of the aam Janta.
Indian businessmen be it Tata, Relaince or Bajaj have the habit of coopting the governments and influencing the policies which benefit them alone at the cost of the people, public and consumers.
Wikipedia is a crap which can be edited at will. So you can put anything you wish in the editorials. It lacks credibility and as far as India is concerned very few people have heard of it.
Merit, a poem by Varavara Rao
LuckyYou are born richTo say in your language``Born with silver spoon in the mouth''Your agitation sounds creativeOur agony looks violentYou are meritoriousYou can break glass of busesIn a shapeAs symmetric as Sun raysYou can deflate the tiresWith artistic �lanWhile indulgent police look onWith their jaws rested on rifle buttsYou can tie `Rakhis'Even inThe dark chambersOf a police stationYou do not buy bus ticketNot becauseYour pocket is emptyThat is practical protestThe beautiful roadsAre all yoursWhether you do a `Rasta Roko'Or drive vehicles with `save merit' stickersWe are bare-footedSweat-stinking road rollersWhat if we built the roads?The merit of plan is yoursThe credit of contract is also yoursThose exhilarating sixty days, what fun!When your cute little girlsAnd their daredevil matesWere going on a delectable rampage,Everybody was delightedParents, their parentsBrothers and sistersEven the servantsAnd reporting Newspapers?Oh, absolutely thrilled!Boys and girlsHand in handIn protestOf buried merit and dashed futureGoing off to a picnicO Yaar,How heroic!You are the marathonersIn merit competitionPoor tortoisesCan we run with you?IfYou serve ``Chair'' in ChikkadpalliSell ``pallies'' in cinema hallPolish boots in Kothi CircleStop a Maruti or Priya on the TankbundTo demand agitation fundWellMedia persons are `merit' creaturesTheir camera hearts `click'Their pens shriek,``Youthful brilliance''!We are drab faced dudsSitting in the stink of dead animalsWe make shoesBy applying color with our bloodAnd polishing themWith the sinking light of our eyesHowever,Isn't the shine differentWhen polishedBy someone in boots?We clean up your filthCarry the night soil on our headsWe wear out our bodiesWashing your roomsTo make them sparkleLike your scented bodiesWe sweep, we clean; our hands are broomsOur sweat is waterOur blood is the phenylOur bones are washing powderBut all thisIs menial laborWhat merit it has?What skill?Tucked-in shirts and miniskirtsJeans and high heelsIf you sweepThe cement road with a smileIt becomes an Akashvani scoopAnd spellbinding Doordharshan spectacleWe areRickshaw pullersPorters and cart wheelersPetty shopkeepersAnd low grade clerksWe areDesolate mothersWho can give no milkTo the child who bites with hungerWe stand in hospital queuesTo sell blood to buy foodExceptFor the smell of poverty and hungerHow can it acquireThe patriotic flavorOf your blood donation?Whatever you doSweep, polishCarry luggage in railway stationOr in bus standVend fruits on pushcartSell chai on footpathTake out processionWith `Save merit' placardsAnd convent pronunciationsWe knowIt is to show us thatOur labor of myriad professionsIs no match to your meritWhite coats and black badgesHanging over chiffon saris and Punjabi dresses`Save merit' stickersOn breasts carrying `steth's (stethoscopes)When you walk(ed) in front of daftarLike a heaven in flutterFor EBCs among youAnd those who crossed 12000 among usThe reservation G.O.Is not only a dream shattered and heaven shakenBut also a rainbow brokenYoursIs movement for justiceOn the earthly heavenThat is why`Devathas' dared more for the amritThe momentYou gave a call for `jail bharao'In the press conferenceWe were shifted outFrombarracksTo rotting dungeonsGreat welcome was preparedRed carpet was spread(`Red' only in idiom; the color scares even those who spread it.)We waited with fond hope thatThe pious dust of your feetWould grace not only the countryBut its jails, tooHow foolish!The meritorious creamThe futureOf country's glorious dreamHow can they comeTo the hell of thieves,Murderers and subversives?We read and rejoiceThat function hallsWhere rich marriages are celebratedBecame your jailsOurs may be a lifelong struggle till deathBut yours is a happy wedding party of the wealthIf you show displeasureIt is like a marriage tiffIf you burn furnitureIt is pyrotechnical stuffIf you observe `bandh'It is the landlord's daughter's marriageLuckyThe corpse of your meritParades through the main streetsHas its funeral in `chourastas'Amidst chanting of holy `mantras'But Merit has no deathSoYou creatively conduct symbolic processionAnd enact the mourning `prahasan'In usTo die or to be killedThere is no meritWe dieWith hunger, or disease,Doing hard labor, or committing crime,In lock up or encounter(Meritorious will not agree inequality is violence)We will be thrownBy a roadside;In a filthy pit;On a dust heap;In a dark forestWe will turn ashWithout a traceWe will `miss'Froma hill or a holeOur births and deathsExcept for census statistics,What use they haveFor the national progress?We take birthAnd perish in deathIn and due toMiserable povertyYou assume the `Avatar'When Dharma is in dangerAnd renounce the roleAfter completing the jobYou are the `sutradhar'You are luckyYou are meritorious!!- Vara Vara RaoSince the poem is not mine... I can not dedicate to anyone... but i found a loophole!LOL! This post is dedicated to the conscience of every YOUTH FOR (un)EQUALITY protester! - ChellaWe have not created this as our themesong..too poor to add music to it!the only background music isthe RHYTHM OF OUR HEART!Will your deaf ears ever listen!? -ChellaThanks Ms Lara Jesany for sending me this
I found a very good blogspot by Ajay Shah on the topic of reservation in higher education. You can read it here
according to you people if talent and hard work is not important then leave general catagory seats on basis of exams and reserved cat seats be distributed by lottory, and see what noise will be made by toppers among reserved seats!!!!
The Union Cabinet on Thursday approved a new 15-point programme to prevent and control communal incidents and take care of minorities' welfare.
The Centre also decided to earmark 15 per cent of funds in various schemes and programmes for nationally declared minorities.
The programme has been recast to focus action sharply on issues intimately linked with the social, educational and economic uplift of minorities and provide for earmarking of outlays in certain schemes so that progress could be monitored, Finance Minister P Chidambaram said after a meeting of the Cabinet chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
The revised programme is also aimed at taking care of prevention of communal riots, prosecution of communal offences and rehabilitation of riot victims.
Under the category of enhancing education opportunities, equitable availability of the Integrated Child Development Services, improving access to school education, greater resources for teaching Urdu, modernising Madrassa education, scholarship for meritorious students from minority communities and improving educational infrastructure through the Maulana Azad Education Foundation would be covered
OBC VOice , what is the metrics for deciding a "Meritorious" minority student?? In order to decide who benefits from the above program, what will decide merit in minority students?
Ya, Before OBC Voice paints the whole IT recruitment process as a farce let me just add a thought here.
I work for a top-notch IT company where I got in through campus interview.I personally talked to the HR manager when she had come to our campus and asked her how in a small frame of 1 day do they decide whether or not they want to make an offer to a student.
She took the time to explain to me.Here are a few points:
1.She said that our first criteria for engineering graduates like you are a first class throughout. All 8 semesters.The reason for this is not just the academic performance but it shows that the particular candidate has been consistent all throughout his education."COnsistency is a big deciding factor" SHe said I do not want a person who is a topper one year and is 20th in the class the next year. I would rather prefer a candidate who came 7th in class for all the semesters.
2.She said the engineering course in Maharashtra is a tough one and we bank on the fact that a candiate who has been able to do well in all 8 semesters has the effeciency, the ability to grasp a new subject each semester, and do well in it
3.Once we clear the analytical test in the personal interview, they ask questions regarding our future plans, how many dependents we have etc.SOme GRE aspirants are not given offer letters if the interviewer feels that he/she is gonna not join the company ones he graduates.
4.Even after getting the offer letter in the 7th semester our company had a criteria that the offer will be cancelled if the student gets complacent and does not get a first class in the remaining 2 semesters.
5.So for all those who make a ridiculous claim that marks dont justify merit (in this case to get a job) think again. They may not justify basic intelligence but they reflect other qualities as consistency, ability to focus and work hard, ability to not waiver once a goal is achieved, knowing where you want to go and having the will power to work on it.
6.These days IT companies have all the money and they get their tests formulated from companies like Thomas Cook. These test are a resut of research about human qualitities.
So where there are people who sell jobs(the rogues will always be there) , there are other HR managers who come to the campus not for a paid outing but with a well designed hiring plan.
Before bullshitting everything in sight sometimes try to believe that recruitment standards in India have actually gone up. More and more worthy graduates who are consistent during graduation get a job without having to get a "jack".
Another thing that I want to mention is that it was the reserved category people in all the streams who found it tough to get a job via campus becuase ,after not doing well in the 12th class, which is relatively easy they found the engineering studies very tough.I am not saying that this does not happen to GC students, but the % of the RC being without jobs was higher.It was sad because in some cases they did not have the first class throughout so were out of the competition.
"...the Karma theory so much loved by the rich and upper caste theologicians of India..."
Nice generalization. That shows how much YOU are in real world.
"It lacks credibility and as far as India is concerned very few people have heard of it."
And the most credibile sources are the ones owned and run by lower castes. Ofcourse they don't have any prejudice and there is some rare chip in their brains which automatically sets them at reporting 'reality' as is. Not even God himself can dispute what is uttered out from a mouth of an OBC!!!
"Merit, a poem by Varavara Rao..."
nice love ballad. I am sure the 'upper caste' who share the mentioned state will find their voice in it!
Merit, a poem by Varavara Rao
melodious tripe inspired by some lousy version of 'oh-i am so-screwed" theme of Goth lyrics!!
pro-reservation,
'I found a very good blogspot by Ajay Shah on the topic'...
The blogger talks of a voucher program - an essentially economic support system. Most anti-reservationists would support that because they want so-called 'economic' criteria to be given preference over caste. Essentially, this system avoids taking into account disadvantages faced by an OBC/Dalit through the earliest stages of his career, right from childhood.
Also it talks of lowering entry barriers in higher education- that's what I pointed out in some of my earlier comments..I believe 'opportunities in higher deucation to be expanded so that all sections get benefitted'.. His idea of higher education is to expand it so that one section with the highest number of 'meritorious' aspirants does not have to forego opprtunities. He is not interested in expanding opportunities to accommodate 'socially' disadvantaged groups.
Hey Mine guruji,
If this poet of urs is the Rao from andhra pradesh (hyderbad region) let me tell you an interesting thing about these guys also called as "gultis" in the US .
These guys are the foremost in making fake experience certificates and getting into the US via body shopping firms.
They have this huge circle of agents that tell them what is hot,
SAP or testing or rational rose etc and these guys take a 4 day course and then give some interview on the telephone where they have books opened in front of them to help them scrape through.
They landed in boom of IT in thousands on the US soil and literally are an eyesore. They are the scum of Indian IT in US. They make so much noise in the office talking in their mother tongue in the US office which is considered very bad by clients , they suck at their work. They make frantic calls to their friends in US to help them with code.
I personally replaced one such"gulti" rao whom the client kicked after trying him for 6 weeks and realising he sucked at his work.
They wear obnoxious pickle smelling clothes to the office,they hardly speak english.. and destroy the whole image of Indian software in US.They pick mattreses from the trash that have been discarded by goras and 10 people live in one room. They are not even civil and a pain when you come across one in the trains. You are so ashamed that you dont even want to identify with them
They are a chief reason why US companies are totally suspicious of indian IT consultants
You want me to cry on his poem!!! come to the US once and see these people , u will be shocked how they landed here!!!! U need to read more , seriously
poet-lover,
'let me tell you an interesting thing about these guys also called as "gultis" in the US .'
Such a refreshingly unprejudiced perspective !
anonymous,
'OBC VOice , what is the metrics for deciding a "Meritorious" minority student?? In order to decide who benefits from the above program, what will decide merit in minority students?'
Interesting question - shouldn't you ask the government about that.. Do they wish to continue with the traditional evaluation system here too, I wonder? As I said, I am not an expert, but the traditional seems unsuitable because it seems weighted against certain disadvantaged sections of Indian society..
anonymous, I know what you're trying to hint at... As I said earlier, I'd leave it to you guys to arrive at a 'consensus' on the issue.
'but the traditional seems unsuitable because it seems weighted...'
read that as 'the traditional system'..
Prejudice:
An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
If I myself replaced a Gulti and had the client tell me that he sucked at his work, and that I have redo his code, is this prejudice??
Do you know anything about the IT field? Have you ever been to the US?Do you know the percentage of "gultis" here? DO you know about their job racket?
You obviously dont, but you as always consider yourself the best informed person about everything under the sun
DO a search for Gultis in US. The thousands of articles should shed some light on your myopic vision of this world.
I am amazed at you, your courage to rubbish anything without even knowing about that field.
OBC Voice
One friendly advice, if you are not married as yet, please dont. No girl must suffer because of your conciet and ego..
poet-lover,
'An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts..'
You're ascribing your own experiences with some of them to the whole community..that's judging the whole community beforehand. I don't have to remind you of certain personalities from the community you refer to who've been at the forefront of the IT revolution in India.. and of being some of the first to earn the respect of the americans in the field of IT.. Google for Dr.Raja Reddy..
One question- do you take this broadminded attitude everywhere you go - and apply it to all activities of your life? God save you man, stereotypes make good fuel for a certain kind of humour.. but you start believing them,seriously, you must also believe all sikhs are 'foolish'.
In other circumstances, I might have reacted much more 'intensely' to your ideas.. but I've seen the sudden eruption of much more serious prejudices - and your ideas seem milder.. the halo effect, I guess. or is it some other such phenomenon..
You're ascribing your own experiences with some of them to the whole community..that's judging the whole community beforehand
Yes the same way as you say all the upper caste is rich.
But You can say that and get away with it? what makes u think u dont generalise?
anonymous,
'One friendly advice, if you are not married as yet, please dont. No girl must suffer because of your conciet and ego..'
Now do you understand what I mean by 'caste limits choices'..? That's the key operative characteristic of caste.. And as you go lower down the caste system it 'limits choices more and more'..
Endogamy, which is the foundation, as it were, of this structure of'limiting choices', is the more visible forms of caste in operation. If a girl has to/had to marry a person like me ..if say, I am/was one of the few available choices in her community, don't you think that goes/went against her basic right to choose? Don't you think that's oppression?
poet-lover,
'Yes the same way as you say all the upper caste is rich..'
Where did you get that idea? I might have indicated all upper caste folks are 'privileged'. Please read my post 'TRuly a lallu..' I linked to an article by social scientist Satish Deshpande who analysing certain NSSO data concluded that the poor among the upper castes constitute less than 10% of the total poor in India. THe OBCs, the Dalits, tribals and the minorities account for the rest (90%).
Going by those figures, one might assume most of the upper castes are better off than the rest of the population.
obc voice said...
anonymous,
i am saying there always have been reservations everywhere for those with money and ..from upper castes.
6:35 AM
Don't you think that's oppression?
No it is not. It is a wrong choice.It would require her to stand up for herself and say no to you,instead of repenting and crying later on.
Why does she have to marry within the caste? Why cant she have the courage to choose her own partner from the other caste make the right choice with courage ,instead saying the options are limited?
Will I feel sorry for such a girl..??NO
poet-lover,
'i am saying there always have been reservations everywhere for those with money and ..from upper castes.'
do you call that a generalisation? that's almost a Law of Nature in India. I'm only acknowledging that.
anonymous,
'Why does she have to marry within the caste? Why cant she have the courage to choose her own partner from the other caste make the right choice with courage..'
Endogamy is the rule in India..You might mistakenly assume things have changed. The rate of inter-community marriages is less than 5%, on an average, across the urban-rural 'divide' in India.
I'd admire any girl/person who'd stand up and say no. I wouldn't admire them any less even if they fail to succeed, even after trying. But for an individual to take on a system endorsed by everyone.. that's an uneven battle. And even if he/she succeds it wouldn't undermine the system of caste in any manner.
IT companies recruit the best. Is that so?
The thing about IT companies is that they hire according to their requirements. Some years they hire very few people and some years, they hire a lot. How is that possible if they hire only the best? Does the number of meritorious candidates suddenly increase when they want people to fill their ranks?
Well, not really. They do have tests which they use as a primary screening process. When they want to hire a few people, the cutoff in their tests is quite high and when they want more people, the cutoff is lowered. The more people they want, the more it is reduced. To give you an idea of how much it is reduced, one company reduced its cutoff from a pretty high 94% to 36% last year.
What I really want to say is that 'merit' as defined by the IT companies is pretty much flexible depending on how many people they plan to take in. Nothing wrong with that but, but, but the problem comes when they start harping on 'merit' when their definition is defined by their volume of business. Because if they can hire a person who scores 36% at any point in time, then they accept that such a person is capable of the job that s/he is hired for.
Corporates (and individuals) have a social responsibility towards the society that they do their business in. There is no doubt, and no argument, that the caste system is a social evil that is rampant in this society. To give inventives to socially disadvantaged people is an important mark of a good citizen. I am suggesting that no IT company would be harmed if they hired a SC/ST/OBC condidate who scores 40% over an upper caste candidate who scored 80% in their tests... It is all about representation.
I never did understand the IT companies concept of flexible 'merit'.
madhat,
thanks for that insight.. it definitely adds to my own limited knowledge on the field. you have also put together a concept i have always grappled with.. 'flexible' merit. if we move away from IT recruiting and apply this concept to admissions in the institutions we're discussing - this is something i've thought about for some time- isn't an aspirant who achieves a score similar to what had been a top score, say twenty years ago, entitled to admission.. today? assuming, of course, the tests have remained more or less the same. If the answer is no, doesn't that prove that the tests' primary purpose is to eliminate and not to measure? If it is to measure and eliminate - how can you eliminate someone who measured right twenty years ago?(i am thinking aloud mostly for not your enlightenment but ..for certain merit taliban)
Madhat,
Please give me the name of the company that changed its hiring standard from 94% to 36%
I will give you the name of my company, it is Cognizant.At no point of time has my company changed the hiring criteria to less than over all first class.
Madhat
Another thing that I wanted to Point out to you is that 36% in engineering is failing.
Passing requires 40. Atleast in Maharashtra.Also I have to yet hear of a engineering graduate who secured 94% in Maharastra engineering course
@obcvoice: There is nothing new in what I say. If you read Prof Varman's email, you would have read about the manager who said that he is looking for anyone 'who can recognise a keyboard'. This particular manager not only was wise but also honest.
One of the best comments made on this issue is by Dr Devi Shetty, who basically said that increase the opportunities to such an extent that if someone wants to get into medicine, s/he can get in but has to pass the exams to get the degree.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
Of course, I am also against this whole Indian infatuation with making their kids either doctors or engineers.
@name please: I very clearly say that the cutoff is for the tests that these IT companies conduct. Secondly, what I am saying is a well known fact in the industry.
@madhat,
'There is nothing new in what I say. If you read Prof Varman's email, you would have read about the manager who said that he is looking for anyone 'who can recognise a keyboard'. This particular manager not only was wise but also honest.'
I've known about this job racket for at least two years now.. and also of its spread and scale.I did not publish a post on it until now because none of the dissenting commenters here would have taken my word as proof of its existence. I'd had waited for some acknowledgement of its existence in the mainstream media. (You'll notice, I haven't until now posted a single article-except for "Thanks Al..", in a way, perhaps- which delves into my own 'lived experience' and knowledge of the operation of caste and reservations.. I haven't talked about the use of fake certificates by upper castes.. which was considerable even in the southern states as late as the eighties.. I haven't talked about the power of caste-based networking in wrangling jobs and manging the course of careers in the government and private sector and in awarding contracts/licences/permits in the world of business and industry. I've not talked about my knowledge of small non-brahmin upper caste-owned companies which grew into large corporates now.. and how they resisted the recruitment of top-middle level employees from castes other than the boss's -even brahmins- until they became medium sized companies and the imperatives of growth demanded that they open up a little). Instead I've used the lessons learnt from my own experiences to analyse and opine on views/articles/studies /written/expressed/done by respectable experts/outsiders.
As I said, I was waiting for the mainstream media to uncover the story.. so i could point to the inherent dichotomy in the IT leaders' words and actions.
Yes, I've read the Prof.Verman email..but didn't publish it here because the 'deficit of trust' I talked about earlier, can only be breached, in a way, by the mainstream media which has so very intensely built this gap. I know, until the mainstream media acknowledges, in whatever perfunctory fashion, the existence of opinions different from Prof.Sundersan's and countless others (like those of verman's and sanil's)the dissenters here are not going to give them much credence. This can only happen ,only in a roundabout way, like the breaking of this racket by Headlines Today. I find it surprising that the average reporter closer to the ground (than the editors/business desk bosses) hadn't been aware of this racket until now. I , a rank outsider to the IT industry, learnt about it around two years ago, as I mentioned earlier. My discovery was accidental - I had been trying to help a young girl from a small town find a job as a clerk/receptionist with some of the clients(medium-level pharma manufacturing corporates mostly) I've worked with. She was from a lower middle class background, from a back-of-beyond mining town, with a commerce degree(through correspondence from one of the less-known TN universities), with nonexistent communication skills in English/Hindi..and a dubious diploma in computer programming (from an unknown, local training institute). Her academic performance had been consistently poor throughout her career and the only thing going for her was her enthusiasm . (there was one other strong positive element in her resume, which I only discovered much later- which was the fact that she belonged to a powerful upper caste). My clients who owned these companies belonged to a rival upper caste (I don't know if that had played a part in her failure to find a job with them - I'd prefer to think otherwise, because at least one of them had been a staunch leftist in his student days). To cut a long story short, all of the companies I referred to found her 'unemployable'. I found out, a few months later that she had landed a job in a small ITES enterprise ..whose boss had decided that the fact that she belonged to the same caste as he did, and miraculously shared the same surname..enough evidence that she was definitely emloyable. She moved up in the company, in a matter of few weeks..and moved out to a bigger, more respectable company (doing some BPO work for a global major)through an agent. Her days as a struggler had helped her develop vital contacts among these agents and HR managers in various companies..and her ambitions made her decide to become an agent herself a few months ago. In the last eight months or so, she has placed nearly 300 aspirants from her hometown and similar, neighbouring small towns in companies ranging from the top three in the business to countless other medium-sized companies. Her HR contacts in these companies would demand (and get) a major portion(80-90% of 50,000-2.5 lakhs)of the price these aspirants paid her. It was all very organized- the aspirants, depending on the price they paid would be helped through tests, technical interviews and HR interviews (Headlines Today confirmed that). The bottomline(literally) is - she has made around 2-3 million(mayb more) rupees (after paying the HR guys)in the last eight months or so.. and helped her father out of debt, and has a considerable amount left in her bank account..
And all this while working only part-time (she was still working in the BPO) on her recruiting business.
NOw, her ambitions have made her quit her job and start her own 'company' ..with a 1000 sft office in a ridiculously high cost-per-sft business in the booming IT metro she lives in. She plans to find sub-contracting 'projects' as she calls them through her middle-level contacts in the industry.
I still can't understand/believe how this actually happened. Because I still find her unemployable.. and she still can't spell 'information'(forget 'information technology').
madhat,
'with a 1000 sft office in a ridiculously high cost-per-sft business in the booming IT metro she lives in.'
read that as '..high cost-per-sft business district..'
OBC VOice,
As against what you do when someone cites a personal experience ,I totally agree with you when you say you have had such an experience about Job rackets.
Picking up from your own comments,
You're ascribing your own experiences with some of them to the whole community..that's judging the whole community beforehand.
Just like you wanted the other commentor to believe that one person that he/she met ,does not mean the whole community of gultis is bad, then one person you met does not mean that the whole upper caste is bad.This is a very simple thing that everyone has been trying to explain to you.
While there may be may upper caste who oppose reservations for their own vested interests, there are also a sizeable number who simply want a professional, non-political review of the efficacy of how reservations have been working as yet.Whether they have helped the really needy.In a democracy, the govt has no right to say no. We chose them and they are literally the publics servants.
What is so wrong about wanting to know what is the plan of implemenatation? I see that you as yet have never touched the topic of what lies beyond this step?Dont you want to know what are the plans of the govt?
Whats wrong with asking for a review?If the govt has a good record ,then that record will show come out shining in that review?
This decision is taken already and passed also.The fact that the indian community so notorious for its chalta hai atttitude is asking questions, using the judicial system to question the government is a excellent sign of a functional democracy.
Have you seen Stephen Colberts speech at the Washington dinner where he butchered the Bush administrattion in a speech while Bush was 2 feet away from him on the stage??That is democracy.
We dont want any more pot-bellied , totally ignorant politicians thrusting things down our throat without explanations.
The right to knowledge is open to all.To you and to me. I have a right as a citizen of India to ask questions on a matter that affects me.
i agree,
'You're ascribing your own experiences with some of them to the whole community..that's judging the whole community beforehand.'
There is a crucial difference here ..I posted my experience as a comment (and not a post) and as i have tried to point out in the same comment i have not used my experience as the core of my argument. The news story was the basis of my post ..and I have no wish or desire to paint the whole IT community in one colour. What I am trying to say is that the scale and spread of the racket is so big that it couldn't have gone unnoticed by the IT leaders who have been advocating a very rigid position on 'merit'. And the news story showed that top managers at these firms knew about the racket.
Madhat
@name please: I very clearly say that the cutoff is for the tests that these IT companies conduct.
If this is a cutoff for the tests then there is also a cutoff for who can appear for the tests.And that was what I was talking about. They have a set percentage ,and candidates with percentages less than cannot apply.
Which means that the IT company is relying on the educational system to give them a report card of the consistency of the client's academic performance over a period of 4 yrs as against his performance on 1 day.
If a OBC candidate has the consistent performance in his education and on a given day is not able to perform in an IT test then I am totally in favour of considering him
How do you justify the fact that IT companies should be forced to accept students who have not done consistently well in their education.If they got admitted a course by reservation then they had a opportunity to study and compete as a equal.Inspite of that why should a software company be forced to accept such a candidate?
If you are a tailor would you employ a person who has a record of not being able to sew well, or that he spoils a dress? If you were a cook would you employ a person that has a record of being a bad cook? Would you employ a house maid who has a record of not being good at her work?
It all boils down to the fact that this is not a charity someone is running.This is a business.Why penalise someone who is ready to pay for a job?And in case of IT good money?
Only question arises on my mind
:
Will 27% seats reserved for OBC's in seats of higher education be the last act of reserving the seats of higher education?
Are the representatives of the OBC's ready to say that they are satisfied by this completely?
Will the percentage increase anytime in the future?
Will we have to go through all this again?
Will The government care to review the effects of the 27% reservation?
Will reservations stay forever?
Will there come a day when the reservation % will be decreased because after the right implementation of a scheme a % of the OBC population will no longer be backward?
Will OBC's accept the decrease?
Will a OBC who got admitted to a good course accept say in 15 yrs from now that he is not backward?
Will a % of OBC's throw out the backward tag in the future and compete with the everyone as equals or continue to use to tag as because of the obvious benefit?
Does a OBC family who becomes economically sound and breaks through into the creamy layer rejoice the fact that they have achieved a particular standard in life or does it rue the fact that their benefits are gone?
@obcvoice:From your description of this woman, I feel that she really deserved her success. But if she had not got that initial boost, she may never have done what she has done in such a short time. Not to mention her success in the light of her poor academic record which should ideally make one wonder whether academic records are true indicators of future success. To say the least, I am impressed by her story. Her story also disproves the libertarian philosphy that a person can succeed completely on his/her own. You need a boost. Whether it is a good education provided for by your parents or some help in the initial part of your career is immaterial but without it, one can never lay the foundation of a good life. What you do after that initial boost is not entirely up to you but is a function of whether the society accepts you in this new role. Society is very important because even if a person does excellent work, the society could still undermine it. An example of this is that woman RJ in Afghanistan who braved threats from the radicals to continue working but she had to pay for it with her life. Even today, SC/STs face a lot of behind-the-back whisperings and are generally shunned.
In these times of easy call center jobs and a booming IT industry, people forget how hard it was to get a job in India. How it was so important that someone 'influenced' your appointment to a job. The practice of sifarish exists even today. My father has helped some of my relatives to get decent jobs that they otherwise would never have got. I am sure that every upper caste person could tell you a similar story. Since family and relatives are always of the same caste, what this sifarish business ends up doing is help the members of the upper caste.
I know that people will argue that this would happen with the lower caste people too. I do not deny that but one has to remember that the upper caste had a incredibly huge head start, thanks to the exploitative nature of the caste system which has existed for a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Even though, caste based discrimination was banned in our constitution, the upper caste remained the highly educated and the people who occupied the positions of power in the executive and the companies. So, is it really a surprise that the upper caste dominate in nearly every realm of power.
With upper caste enjoying such prosperity, is it really a surprise that they dominate in the higher education too? The problem primarily is the limited number of opportunities compared to the huge number of students. This makes the arena of higher education the property of those who are either geniuses or who can afford the expensive, quality, entrance exams oriented tutions.
@name please: Ok, I will try again but do not expect me to keep trying.
Let us say a company hires employees based on an IQ test and let us assume, for the sake of simplicity, that this is the sole criterion on which people would be hired. How will it go about hiring people?
First, it will determine how many people it needs to hire. Let us say that it needs to hire 20 people. Out of the pool of people who take the test, it would have to select the top 20. So, the cutoff for this hiring proces would be high as the number of people required is high. Let us say that it is 140 (although, it is a different matter as to why people with such high IQ would join IT companies).
If the company wanted to hire 100 people, the cutoff would be lower, right? Because, if you keep the cutoff as 140, you would end up hiring only hire 20 people. Let us say that the cutoff came down to 110. So, depending on the amount of people the company wants to intake, it decides where to draw the line.
In the first hiring process, where they would have rejected a person with IQ 120, the rejected people are not deemed to be incapable of doing the job because they would get hired in the second hiring process for the same job!! Such a person is meritorious at one particular moment and not in another!!! So you see, the notion of 'merit' in IT companies is flexible based on the requirements of the company. Usually, this means that the more the expected rise in volume of business, the lower is their idea of merit.
What I am advising is that when the company is hiring 20 employees, it can hire a SC/ST/OBC candidate who has an IQ of 120 even though the cutoff for others is 140 because that person is capable of doing the job (as evidenced by his/her selection to the job in the second hiring process) without losing out on (the non-existent, in truth) quality. This really would not affect the company and would be a good thing to do for the betterment of our society.
To be very frank, the software job does not really require much skills/talent/genius. It is really an easy job that anybody can do. An indication of this is when IT companies hire engineers whose field is not computers. They train them for six months and tada, they are software engineers. Experience counts, even as low as 6 months.
madhat,
'The problem primarily is the limited number of opportunities compared to the huge number of students.'
yes. but when i had told a comenter that opportunities and the reach in higher education needed to be expanded.. he/she agreed with me on the 'opportunities' part but not on the 'reach' part. this silly belief that brand value is built on exclusion and is not diluted through the expansion of competition through diversity is characteristic of the elitists in india.
'From your description of this woman, I feel that she really deserved her success.'
I've become a great admirer of the girl. I'd always believed that though she was 'unemployable' by certain rigid, conventional norms..her energy and drive would help her build a career. but she exceeded my expectations.
madhat,
'and is not diluted through the expansion of competition through diversity is characteristic of the elitists in india.'
read that as : ' is diluted..'
I think the idea of chosing only the meritious people in IT was used By Premji as a ploy to say diplomatically that he resists any kind of enforcement.
Come to think of it, if I owned a huge business I would like to run it on my terms and would be terribly upset if someone enforced something on me.
If the govt moves away from this stand of enforcement to employing the backward class voluntarily and giving incentives like tax cuts for them then it will be recieved better.
Another thing that is note-worthy is that the whole IT industry saw this phenomenal growth because it's deliverables( In this case -code) never had to pass through government scrutiny, it was not goods that were waiting to be exported while the respective minister could get a bribe.
Now suddenly when the government has shown that it wants to fiddle with the IT industry , the IT industry is finding it difficult to adjust to this new phenomenon.
point of view,
'If the govt moves away from this stand of enforcement to employing the backward class voluntarily and giving incentives like tax cuts for them then it will be recieved better.'
i agree with you on that. but looking at the examples of the central public sector and the central government itself..and now the centrally run educational institutions - what do you learn?
The Mandal report was accepted in 1980 and it came to parliament in 1990.. The recommendations had become known to all the leaders in academia and industry (particularly the public sector) by the early eighties. Wouldn't it have been visionary and smart on the part of the public sector and the educational institutions to have voluntarily taken up positive discrimination programs on their own.. even in a very small but steady and phased manner?
That didn't happen.
In 1991, after the govt 'enforced' reservations in jobs in the central govt and the public sector ..the institutions were still given a long rope.. And now in 2006 we've come to this sorry pass- except for JNU, none of the other institutions even made similar token attempts to promote diversity. For a long period of 15 years. Forget being supersmart - I've begun to think these institutions are run by people who are incapable of reading even the simplest scrawls on the wall.
@obcvoice: I think that is the position of the elitists (read, libertarians) the world over. Meritocracy is not an Indian invention but one that originated from the west. If you trace the etymology of the word, you will find that it was first used in a piece of dystopian fiction. In a way Michael Young's futuristic vision has already been actualised if you look at the arrogant and condescending remarks made by the anti-reservationists. An example of this is those doctors marking their protest by sweeping the streets. That's arrogance, my friend.
If you ask me whether I am happy with the current form of reservations, I would say that I am not. I would say that caste and gender should be used as basis for reservation, because, for me, gender issues are far more important (but that is just me). I would say that the form of reservation being employed is blunt and needs to be more fine-tuned. But, but, but the important thing is that I think that reservations is the only way.
Before people jumping all over me that what I am really saying is a form of AA as followed by the US, let me clarify. You cannot just lift a policy that works in a specific social, political, historical and cultural setup and apply it in radically different social, political, historical and cultural setup. When you try to do that, it just exposes your ignorance. Your intentions may be good in suggesting that but it just cannot be applied. Plus, the AA policy in the US is far from ideal and has its own headaches. For example, AA would give preference to blacks, right? But what about the mixed races. What about those people who try to find out if there is even a percent of 'black blood' in them to claim benefits of the AA policy? Where would you draw the line?
I am sick and tired of people pointing to the west and saying, look, look, it is working there and we must adopt such a policy. First of all, the US is not a democracy. Anybody who thinks that is advised to look up why Bush became the president in 2000 even though Al Gore won the popular vote (ie, the vote of the people). Secondly, before you come marching praising the AA of the US, go read about the civil rights movement, the history of AA, the struggles of the blacks to gain acceptance even after a hundred years after being freed from slavery. Ignorance is not an excuse. It is a singularly unforgivable crime, especially when you trumpet opinions based on such rank ignorance. There is a proverb in hindi, I dont remember the exact words, which says that a half filled vessel makes the most noise. So true...
@pov: From your point of view, what coca cola is doing in plachimada and what Union Carbide did in Bhopal is perfectly legitimate and they should not be forced not to harm the environment and destroy the livelihoods and health of the people of the area where they operate in? Can you really expect a capitalistic company to be socially responsible without the government enforcing certain laws? Would you be against the environmental laws that enforce certain restrictions on how a company manages its waste and how it pollutes the environment? Would you be against food quality laws where the government enforces a certain quality on the food stuffs the company produces so as not to harm the consumers?
Anarcho-capitalism is the worst that ever happened to the world (and by this mean things like the East India Company) and that is what you are suggesting when you say that the government should let the companies be free to do whatever they want. The sad thing is that history is repeating itself and people like you just do not see it.
Madhat,
I think you really blew things out of proportion this time. All your fervor about doing things the right way is extremely correct albeit far from the practicality.
Ours is a country where money sanctioned for a bridge goes to a politicians pocket and the bridge either remains a distant dream or gets done in the most shoddy fashion by a contracter who was able to bribe.As shocking as it is, this all goes unnoticed, no one cares and all is fine.
As much as it angers us, there is a point where one must be able to deal with this virus eating at our society by approaching a golden middle, where both parties aer walk out of the discussion that they were treated well.
I never support industries polluting the ennvironment,I am a strong supporter for quality assurance checks and I also know that Quality certificates are can easily be bought at a with "good relations" with a QA officer.
In such a scenario one has to think what is it that will be incentive enough for a industry to want to go the right route.It is shocking that they need incentive to do good ,but it is the truth. And why target only industries.Lets look within us. SO we do any good without a incentive.
I have experience of a few Jains.And I dont mean to single our only them but just because I have experience i am citing this example. Ask them to donate for a noble cause like education, or healthcare or flood or earthquake funds and you are shooed off. But he same guy donates in Lakhs if it is for a Jain temple. For building beautiful, marble carved structures for God.
Why? He wants to buy the "Punya" or good karma. That is his incentive.
We personally spend close to 200 rs eating a Pizza at a upscale place, but when a scheme comes by CRY where by paying just 100 rs a month you can sponsor the complete education of a girl child, we think twice.
Mankind is born selfish.If you need them to do something that will inturn bring good to society give them some incentive.
Enforce something and you will here more of this "merit" excuse.
Learn to understand the fact that a rigid stand does not usually work beyond the pen and paper.
After the government imposed reservations in the jobs through Mandal, what happened.
The recruitment n goverment came to a standstill and the same set of elite upper caste people, who had enjoyed the power and pelf of Nehruvian socialism, now started singiing paeaens in support of capitalism.
Nothing changed in India for the poor and underprivileged and particularly the depressed clases.
The scale at which the BJP govt cut job was phenomenonal.
Whatever we discuss and debate, one thing is sure, casteism is the soul of India and it will always rules the people of this country.
Whichever caste group is united and powerful, it rule the country.
Brahmins are very poweful, either they will rule through proxy or emigrate to US, the Rajputs would like to fight and die honourably.
The banias wont mind making a deal, if the price is right.
The OBCs, SC/STs and Muslims will be baying for the blood of the upper castes and this is likely to be the future scenario.
And mind you no one can improve upon this situation.
I think you really blew things out of proportion this time.
"Oops" Did you even stop to wonder whether it was all intentional? Obviously not.
All your fervor about doing things the right way is extremely correct albeit far from the practicality.
Interesting, I do not see where I wrote anything about implementation in that comment. Or is that your imagination going overboard?
In such a scenario one has to think what is it that will be incentive enough for a industry to want to go the right route.
So, to make the industry follow environmental laws, it needs incentive? I say just enforce the law on them and if they dont comply, run them out of the country.
Mankind is born selfish.If you need them to do something that will inturn bring good to society give them some incentive.
So, on the basis of a few people, you make a judgement about the entire _mankind_? Interesting way of looking at the world. So, all those people who donated for the Tsunami relief or the Bhuj earthquake do not exist? Or are you claiming that they got some incentive to donate? Oh, the punya, of course! But what about those who wernt Hindus? I wonder how CRY manages to run given the selfish mankind who do not support it monetarily....
Enforce something and you will here more of this "merit" excuse.
So, you agree this '"merit" excuse' is a lot of donkey crap. This was the point of obcvoice's post. We do not disagree there, do we?
Learn to understand the fact that a rigid stand does not usually work beyond the pen and paper.
I disagree in two ways.
1. It does.
2. you are being presumptive again.
Docs beat up Dalit, force him drink urine
HT Correspondent
Bhopal, June 22, 2006
IN A barbaric act, some junior doctors beat up a Dalit labourer for
several hours, chopped his hair haphazardly and allegedly forced to
drink urine in a Gandhi Medical College hostel Thursday evening. The
doctors suspected the labourer of stealing a wristwatch.
The man somehow managed to free himself from the clutches of the
tormentors and rushed to police station. Police sources said Baliram
Ahirwar, a Dalit from Raisen district, ekes out living by whitewashing
houses. He was on work today in Koh-e- Fiza locality when a group of
junior doctors detained him on suspicion of stealing a wristwatch from
B-Block of the hostel.
The boarders took the man to the hostel and beat him black and blue.
The police sources said the junior doctors started beating him from
2.30 pm and continued thrashing till night. He was first beaten in a
room and then taken to the roof where he was beaten up again.
From police station, he was rushed to Hamidia hospital for medical
examination. When contacted a police official said the victim was not
in a position to tell how many junior doctors beat him up. He only
said that he would identify them if they were brought before him.
Police have lodged a FIR against unknown persons on the charges of
wrongful confinement of the labourer and beating with him.
Some junior doctors said the labourer used to steal articles like
mobile and wristwatches from the hostel. He had worked at the hostel
and was familiar with the premises.
The depressed people of India will win come what may. People like Shyama living in safe and rich environs of Singapore need not worry.
Get your education their, stay cool their, we dont need your advice.
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