Ask Nafisa Ali..
"If there are no reservations at all....
Is there anything in the indian constitution stopping anyone, belonging to any cast or creed, from getting higher education, if he/she is intelligent and qualified enough for it ??"
I noticed this query elsewhere on the net - I agree with the commenter : there is nothing in the Indian Constitution, if there are no reservations, that'd stop intelligent and qualified people.
So, what's stopping some ? We demand the government to appoint an apolitical commission comprising Navjot Singh Sidhu, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and...
posted by obc voice @ 2:54 PM
26 Comments:
learn it from him...if you can.
Prasant Chander Mittal said...
I myself was son of poor parents. I had to face problems of affluent upper class. I made my way only through my hard work. I can vouch it is "money" rather than "caste" that matters, which is real differentiator in India and that is today's realty. Upper caste poor Brahmin is treated as badly as lower caste poor. But if a lower caste people achieve wealth then he is not considered out-cast at all. In fact in real life I have seen ST people son of IT director, OBC candidate who can afford "BMW/Mercedes/Toyota Sports car" and still they are using reservations, why do such kind of people need reservations? They are not outcaste in-fact they hold such immense powers that they can outcast other people.
I am not against reservations but provide equal footing to all. At time when all institutes are facing infrastructure and faculty crunch, increasing the number of seats is blatant lies. Give reservation no problem but why dilute eligibility criteria for examinations especially for entrance. Even after entrance when general candidates are given say X attempts to clear examination then why reserved students are given X+X attempts. Simple solution to this menace is providing good quality primary and secondary education. Did you consider from where government will arrange such huge funding for future expansion. Clear and simple answer they will not provide from their pocket so they will increase the educational cess to say up to 1% of maybe even more, which means we are paying for hypocrisy of government from our pockets.
They are also forcing corporate to mandate the reservations. I will urge to corporate move your bases away from India to countries like China/Bangladesh/Philippines/Malaysia/Singapore/Indonesia etc. They will not only welcome you but also provide better infrastructure and facilities at cost almost comparable to India. Economic liberation did not happen because of politician it happened because of these corporate houses. They were driver who forced to change draconian laws of land.
If we go by our Vedas, they declare every one is lower caste by birth. It is actions in life that make person higher or lower. These politicians are definitely not only lowering them but also creating a divide among all people across the country. If you want to provide reservations then out rightly answer these questions:
a) Why reservations are provided again and again? I mean same person get admission in under-graduate, then in graduate and yet again in IAS? If 3 different people are offered same post that will improve life of 3 people and thereby will help achieve objective of reservations early.
b) Why do reservations are provided to people who have less marks? Let them give 50% reservations but give equal footing in terms of eligibility to all candidates?
c) Why do people of high-profile nature and affluent nature should be allowed to use reservations?
d) What is time frame for removing the reservations? Why not set a deadline that after X many years no matter what reservations will be abolished because in present scenario if no body questions then it will keep on rolling year after year?
e) Why not base reservations on economic basis rather than caste basis?
If government still cannot answer these then my sincere appeal to all of you who wish to die. Do not waste your time by killing yourself. In fact do RDB and kill all of Politician (Note not 1 but most of them). Most of then are equally corrupt and do not care for public, only thing they care for is vote that too because if they come to power then their 7 or may be more generations will live without worry (Saath pusto tak beth kar khayenge). How come people with earning less than Rs 50000 per month became so affluent? No body dares to check it and however tries it will be wiped out. This is fact. We need again British rule to get rid of these diplomatic people who has lies crafted out for every occasion. They are sole source why be are still not able to remove corruption from India. As they say "Raja chor ho to darkhast kisse kare". Have you ever heard of any big politician been really convicted for his offences? They escape by only court case hearing year after year (wasting time for judiciary as well).
We are not talking of fool or uneducated or illogical people making the demands. Our country’s future and in-fact most talented people are making demands which are not even heard at all. If this is the case then how are we going to increase our knowledge base? We do not have choice between any political parties. We do not have option for good and bad. Only option we have is between worse and worst. Whoever comes to power is worst and the other party became worse (simple and plain truth).
I will say all youths should go to Kashmir and coordinate with Militants. Militants are fool who work with heart. If they get brains of IITs and IIMs, and AIIMS then this puny politicians can do nothing. Let doctors declare that we will not take care of any politician or their relative. If politician needs medical attention then not only he requires best of breed but also foreign doctors why not then they go to so called reserved doctors. Simply because they themselves are afraid of genuiness of those candidates.
I do not see any difference between “Dictatorship of King Gyanendra”, “Dictatorship of Mussaraf”, or “Dictatorship by so called Indian elected government”. We should come to street in full force like whole Nepal did then only I think perhaps we can be heard (Even then I am not sure, one thing is sure government will try to suppress the movement by all means). As is happening with “Aamir Khan” in Gujarat for release of “Fanaa”, instead of considering their fault, people under the direct patronage of political parties are trying all illegal unconstitutional means to subvert the release. Please note that it is not against BJP infact it holds true for all parties. Beating student in Delhi and Mumbai are example of how bad Congress is. Yes these are not 2 parties most of them have similar traits. In contrast consider reserve student beating police in Patna (See how general vs reserve fair). Another example CPI said they were against “creamy layer” inclusion in OBC quotas but even they went mum on issue when declaration is made. (Is hamam mein sab nange hai).
There is no real “freedom of speech” or I will say any kind of freedom against government is given in India. In contrast US/UK have true democracy, where you can stand against President/prime-minister and be assured that you will not be bullied. In fact if your cause is genuine then you will be supported by lots of other people. In India even opposition is not against reservations why because if they say anything against the issue then there vote-bank will be harmed. Otherwise how will you say that when on all other issues they fight like dog and cat, they can accede to this issue? It is not in national interest as they point out but it is in their personal interest. I urge US/UK or any developed country if they are reading this article (which is distant possibility) then please provide general bright Indian candidates asylum in your countries. We will be more than happy for basic salary that is enough to support life in your country. Atleast we do not have to loose our pride again and again.
If you give incapable people for handling a dangerous machine then either he is going to hurt himself and environment or he will damage the machine. Before sending a people to war you need to train him. Sending a naïve solider without training to command a battalion is not at all wise. If reservation is only answer then why not give reservations in politics.
Now you are giving reservations to OBCs then will come different minority religions and then girls and then poor upper caste. There is no end to this menace simple solution is make people capable and give them strong foundation from where they can launch themselves and do not depend on crutches.
If you cannot improve the situation to heaven then atleast do not make it hell.
Hi,
You have refused, for some reason, to reveal your name. I hope it is not because you do not want to endorse your own views outside the cyber world.
I am assuming that you belong to the OBC. Guess what, me too. The difference ends there however.
I am opposed to reservations as the final policy towards solving the social problem that is the Indian caste system. I believe that other more effective methods exist that do not darken the line further between the upper and lower castes. As an example, there was a percentile based approach put forward by Vikas Narang here:
http://www.antireservation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=144&start=15
Also, OBCs are not oppressed in society. They are historically *economically* downtrodden, not socially. For them financial assistance is more important than seat reservation. Financial assistance is a substitute for their economical deficiency, not their talent and that should be the way.
I believe both sides (the anti-reservationists and pro-reservationists) need to come together and agree on the mutual point that social upliftment is required and then come together to work on a solution which will bring about aggregate upliftment of the Indian society without deepening the barriers of caste any further.
How will you factor in this statement of Arjun Singh in the parliament that only 6-7% of all 17-23 year olds enroll for undergraduate classes? Have a look.
And his grand vision is to make it 10% by 2007 and implement quota. Quotas will affect a miniscule of those 6-7%. The vision of MHRD makes my blood boil. Whom are they kidding?
And by looking at the response, it looks like the entire nation.
There is a severe lack of opportunity for everyone and more so for SC/ST/OBC but this quota will affect a very small and already well off section (i.e. those who can already afford schooling and do not drop out). Does the MHRD has any plans for making this figure 50% and not 10% for all the 17-23 year olds? I don't think so.
Sorry obc-voice, I'm hijacking your blog a bit here.
Hi Mridula,
If you think that a million people protesting comprise a majority of the country then think again. As per the 2001 census we are well over 1 billion, thats 1000 million. So by that standing, only 0.1% of the entire population is protesting.
Sheer numbers are not going to get you anything. Consider your 6% of the population. That amounts to 60 million people. Now do you agree that its a good figure? And from 60 million you want Arjun Singh to aim at 600 Million in the next few years; thats a deficit of 540 million. Don't you think that's asking for too much right away?
If he is looking at increasing the 6% to 10% he's aiming at an increasing in graduate literacy by more than 40 million. A Massive number of people.
Finally, the quotas will not affect a miniscule of the 6-7%, it is aimed towards encouraging a large OBC population in the 93-94% that drop out after high school.
Hi OBC Voice,
Well though i must appreciate your writing skills, Your musings give a picture of rights through militancy. Simply by sheer numbers, the backward classes can very well manage to get rid of 'upper class exploitative population'. Just beware of the politicians. Some day they will divide you into very backward and very very backward and so many other backward classes.
Hi,
I left comments on your earlier post manudal ,got no response so leaving these comments again. Let me know if you think justice was done to me.
Hi,
Read your blog. Have a few comments. Please read with a rational mind open to ideas.
I dont know if you have ever faced the brunt of being in a so called upper class. If not just spend a few moments to read my experience.
I came from a middle class background.Dad served in tthe private sector and was the only source of income. He made it clear to me that if and only if I get admitted to the Govt engg college will we be able to afford a enginnering degree education. For your information fees for a year in govt college was 4000 rs at my time and in pvt colleges the fees was 32000 on paper + a minimum of 10000 extra.
Under that pressure i worked hard for entire class 12. I had only one coaching class for math under an elderly teacher i respect like God . He took only 75 rs a month for Math class.
I went to no other fancy classes.My dream was the computer stream in the govt college. Because of it's name that college has the best campus recruitment which offers a means to get a job with no "JACK" . It means a way to rise in economic stature and sort of wipe out the past.
I got 96.33 % in my class 12. My father had tears in his eyes as he felt that I had fulfilled his dream..He got me a bouquet of flowers and a gold ring that I yet wear , the day the results were declared.
I applied and then the dream ended. In the open category the computer stream closed at close to 98%. Yes!!! There were 20 people atleast who had the same percentage. Meaning 20+ people with 97 in the open category.Such is the competition!!!
I did not get admitted to the stream I wanted . I had all the other private colleges open for me. some of best after the govt college for the stream I wanted. But I knew i cannot afford to get into a private college.My elder sister was in a private college already.
I chose a stream i did not want. I came home in shock.Many people who I knew had lesser percentage than me got in easily. These people were very well to do.Owned cars and a big house.
It was my time for tears that night. It is a feeling you will never know. My father consoled me. in vain.
Think again abt a person who worked so hard only to see someone else walk off with what was rightfully his/hers.
Did u hear in the interview of Arjun singh that 50% of seats remain vacant and 50% of the others take more than 6 yrs to get their degree.
I had people in my class who had taken 7 yrs to pass a 4 yr degree.
I never even knew about the caste of my friends untill some of them got admissions they did not deserve.
So, for middle class people like us merit is the only chance for us to get into the right places. And we work hard for that.We pay our taxes, dont arson or burn anything, we live normal lives and then some one weilding a caste certificate jumps ahead in the line giving us a huge slap on the face.
I respect ur difference of opinion but you look like a classical example of a person untouched by this issue..May be I am wrong.
anonymous/prashant,
thanks for expressing your views.
Siddhesh,
i agree with the substance of your views that reservations are not the final solution- it's been the opponents of reservations who have been more fixated on reservations. their opposition to and success in stalling the mandal implementaion, and before that in trashing the kalelkar report should tell you something about their sincerity towards the cause of equality - when even token positive discrimination efforts like reservations are so very vehemently opposed, you need to see that there is a clear refusal to share access to the resources of the state. understand: they oppose reservations not because they are in favour of better methods but because they are not in favor of any methods.period.
your contention is that the obcs need 'financial assistance' more than 'reservations'.
read my post..'manudal'- I quoted an article saying that until 1990 the obcs had only 4% representation in central government.. the sc/sts had more representation. why?
i just learnt that obcs in hyderabad central university (which is a centrally run university)are less than 6% of the total student strength. the sc/sts are 16%. why?
going by NSSO figures (the article i linked to in my 'Meritophilia' post)the percentage of people below poverty line among obcs is roughly one-third of their total number. if as you say, economics is the reason behind the low number of obcs in higher education, please explain why the precentage of people above the poverty line among obcs (less the one third below the poverty line, it would amount to 66% of obcs or around 34 crore people) were not able to secure at least 34% of the jobs in the central government (proportionate to their share in the total population). or at least 24 %, assuming many of those above the poverty line are not much better off than those below,? or 14%? why that dismal figure of 4%?
ask yourself, is economics the major reason?
looked at from any angle, that 4% figure represents a massive human tragedy to me.
you say: 'Also, OBCs are not oppressed in society. They are historically *economically* downtrodden, not socially'
and in the very next paragraph urge: 'both sides (the anti-reservationists and pro-reservationists) need to come together and agree on the mutual point that social upliftment is required ...'
if they are not backward socially why is any 'social upliftment' required at all?
my name? i thought names and such other identities are not important in our 'casteless society'? i want people to focus on the fact that i am an obc - and i am not asking for any upliftment( and believe me,i'm more irksome to some folks offline than i am here) - and my identity as an obc becomes crucial here because that's what kept the obcs out of all those jobs in the first place.
'I am assuming that you belong to the OBC. Guess what, me too. The difference ends there however..'
makes you feel good that you are not like me? i support your right to tell the world that you are not like me. and this is the right place to hijack because a lot of the visitors here are interested in hearing that some obcs are not like me.
roopali,
i remember your comment.. was only trying to find the time to reply to you ..
all,
i'll be back in a few hours.
hi, my e mail is socialjustice2day@gmail.com
[quote]
makes you feel good that you are not like me? i support your right to tell the world that you are not like me. and this is the right place to hijack because a lot of the visitors here are interested in hearing that some obcs are not like me.
[/quote]
The difference between our standpoints is very fundamental; I am against any reservation because it undermines any achievement that any OBC/SC/ST gets. In the public eye, his self respect remains the same; someone who has risen up because of our "favours". Other than that I guess we are talking more or less the same language.
For those who think that I am here to hijack your blog and foul mouth you, they're mistaken. While I differ on the approach, I think both of us acknowledge and understand the social problem unlike many.
I spoke of OBCs as an economically oppressed class and I maintain that. The social upliftment factor has come up because of the way OBCs are being viewed today. They are being viewed in the same light as the SC/STs mainly because general public rarely does any research and hence ends up using whatever labels they get first. Hence, the approach required towards SC/ST needs to be applied to OBCs as well to some extent. But other than that I still maintain that by definition OBCs are not an "oppressed caste", they're a downtrodden economic class.
I had written an email to the YFE (Youth For Equality) forum regarding their anti-reservation stand. A transcript is available on my site (http://siddhesh.tk). They replied to me saying that they have been issuing statements asking for alternate methods that could replace reservations (something on the lines of the NKC members) but the press seems to be interested only in the "masala". You could call it a bluff, but I'm a bit more inclined to believe the press slant.
Lastly, I apologize if you felt offended by my statement regarding our differences earlier. We can have a healthy debate without me making such inappropriate comments.
Thanks for this vent ...i have a little pent up anger which i need to get off my chest ...feel free to delete but definitely read bcos more than neone else i want you to read it.
Bull Shit
I think those two words can pretty much summarize your approach to arguments raised by pretty much everyone on your blog. You may have created a haze around your self but quite clearly your not fooling anyone.
OBCs will definitely get their reservation. No political party has the balls to deny them. One word for this - POPULISM ....its the death knell for any country.Why doesnt the government just print 8000 crores and distribute it among OBCs ( inflation? ...who cares we're all for social justice here long term /immediate term repurcussions can go screw themselves)
Get one thing into your thick head ( and given your twisted mind i suppose youll call that a racial slur ...but no i dont know anything about your community ...but i definitely think your an idiot) Its ALWAYS the economy stupid.The world is changing , we ARE at an inflexion point ...to compete with other emerging economies we need the BEST and the BRIGHTEST. India is going to be left behind if takes the approach you support ....So we two indias here one with reservation which was left behind because of an INCOMPETENT ( yes that is the only word for people who get through with crutches) work force which is all pretty and rosy fool (pun) of social justice ( every1 wearing white?) but without an effin job ...a basket case of all basket cases ...labors dirt cheap but doesnt know its way around a lathe ....
In the blue corner you have an india which took the FREE MARKET approach...where thanks to its human capital a thousand opportunities bloomed ;where thanks to CAPITALISM it became unviable to keep large sections of ( economic/social whatever ) society outside of the mainstream -What difference do you see between the india of today and 20 years ago?...private enterprise and not a socialist approach will see us through ...
I wish the private univs in india were listed , would love to invest in them ; given the govt education system will go to hell and these guys will cater to the VAST middle class who cannot afford to send their kids abroad. i see them as the next centers of excellence ....maybe this will finally kickstart private higher education in india ...although once they develop i can see demands for RESERVATION there as well....
as far as past misdeeds go ...why not ask the british for 250 years of lost earnings ...we could proabably , on a nindflation adjusted basis ask for the present value of their past earnings ....and then on a QUOTA basis distribute them to various castes...
YES reservations will happen , yes you will dney a lot of deserving people , yes a miniscule community of obcs will benefit ....but your grandiose plans of social upliftment can go to hell bcos nothing ogf that sort will happen .....the best institutes of india are not what they are bcos of faculty/govt resources i have been to an iit and an iim i know they are prestigious bcos of the quality of their STUDENTS ...u may aspire to them through reservations but you are killing th golden goose ...u may say that iitians havent achieved nething ...go to silicon valley , go to bangalore , go to foreign instutes and check their faculties , their graduate student body , their published papers how many are iitians ...i dont know whether u guys are expecting a newton or einstein from an ENGINEERING college ....u tamely forget the khoslas , the nilekanis , the rekhis who have set up and provided employment to thousands is that no acheivement?and to top that hypocrisy you aspire to the same institutes ...u can go to hell!!
I pay taxes , i worked hard to get where i am , my father was not rich ,i cudnt afford coaching classes ,pple told me to forget my dreams bcos they were impossible
i had to work while i studied at college,but i realized my dreams ; no one ever did me any favors ;
Thanks to you i feel like a victimized minority in my country , i have begun to think like a casteist ; i have for the first time began to think of US and THEM ...thanks for this awakening ...
I am only human ; i see pple like myself being stripped of opportunities because of my caste.
My children will not study in this country ...i myself have started chalking up plans of immigrating.
I HATE you because of your CASTE ( yes its not politically correct but thats how i feel)...thank you for this feeling.
dear anonymous, thanks 4 that vent of anger. do you deserve a reply? anyway, you guys are immigrating...so, don't give the funda that obcs are pushing you out of "your own country!" USA and UK calls you with pounds and dollars, that is all. don't give swadeshi slogans before quitting the country that has fed you and the likes of you, with subsidized education throughout.
oh mere yaaro...himmat mat haaro...27% reservation laagu hogaye to kya?
Hum jee jaan se mehnat karenge aur apna mitha phal in bhookhe OBCs ko de denge...
neki kar daria me daal!
jai hind!
OBCVOICE
you say reservations are right becoz OBCs were humiliated and were downtrodden for years.
i only ask one thing...
during the time of freedom struggle upper class or lower class-all were equally humiliated and tortured.If there wasnt any difference then,then why now?
If being suppressed is the justification to have reservations then even upper classes need reservations.
And anonymous,
I can so well understand your anger.I feel the same but dont want to waste it here.I will store it to make it my power.
OBCvoice-ally says "anyway, you guys are immigrating...so, don't give the funda that obcs are pushing you out of "your own country!" USA and UK calls you with pounds and dollars, that is all. don't give swadeshi slogans before quitting the country that has fed you and the likes of you, with subsidized education throughout."
Its the pathetic thing about him.You mean,you will snatch away our rights for the benefit of the backward,wont give us the security of a good job despite MERIT (i know that word kills you.) and TALENT...and if we want to move out of the country of caste based admissions in IITs/IIMs to have a breath of fresh air,you will dub us as DESHDROHI??
Yaahi tera khana bhi cheen lunga aur tujhkahi aur se bhi khane na dunga.Tu yahi beth ke rota reh aur apne upper caste hone ko rota reh.
OBCs shayad badla le rahe hain.
I hate OBCs,never before.BUT now I do.And i will teach my children to" keep away from them,they might snatch away your toy or ice cream,baby."
OBCs kahike...janam se bhookhe nange hota hain ...maang ke khane ki aadat hoti hai...na mile to cheen lenge ya chori kar lenge...bhen ke lode!
Hi OBC voice,
The posts above are an indication of what reservations can do in the long run.
OBCs haven't exactly been a "humiliated" caste for all these years; poor yes, but not humiliated. But one thing is for sure, in the next few years they surely are going to be humiliated by everyone in the general category. Here we have it, the caste system at work, in its full glory. And reservation is simply going to darken the line.
You are probably strong enough to handle these comments and even dish back if necessary. But there are many others who will simply lose heart or probably even take some wrong measures.
Regards,
Siddhesh
to all general catagory concerned selfless students...
please dont do this............dont indulge into self immolations please...this will bring agony only to your family and home..bloody politicians will not be affected!!
dont do this...pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssseeeee!!!!
mridula,
'There is a severe lack of opportunity for everyone and more so for SC/ST/OBC but this quota will affect a very small and already well off section (i.e. those who can already afford schooling and do not drop out). Does the MHRD has any plans for making this figure 50% and not 10% for all the 17-23 year olds? I don't think so.'
I agree with you, almost totally, on that.
rupali,
'Please read with a rational mind open to ideas.'
What can I say if you start out with doubts about my capacity to be rational?
I've a question: did you bother to question the students fighting for 'equality' why you had to undergo the trauma you described in your comment?
I've said elsewhere on this blog, responding to another commenter, that the solution to this crisis lies in :
a). expanding the infrastructure and the reach of higher education in India,
b). expanding the infrastructure and quality of school education in the country along with concomitant efforts at improving the health/social harmony situation in the countryside.
The first task, in my view, would ensure that students like you don't suffer because of the severe shortage of seats in higher education. I agree with you that you deserve that seat as strongly as the students who scored 98%. In fact, I believe that every student who has earned a reasonably high score deserves a seat because they are all diligent students, more or less. Expanding infrastructure in higher education would ensure that very few students like you suffer. But the students fighting for 'equality' are against it. why?
The word 'reach'I used in the first task I outlined, implies that access to higher education for lower caste students needs to improve. Why should this be done? Because if ours had been a fair, 'equal' society there would have been enough students from those sections of society competing with others on an equal footing- which would mean that there'd have been enough lower caste students at 98% to further limit opportunities for students below that score. So, why should students from lower castes be given such an 'unfair' advantage now, you still ask. Because there'd definitely be fewer candidates from those castes for any seats in any higher education institution in the near future if they aren't provided incentives such as reservations now. And in the distant future, probably no one from among the most unfortunate sections of these communities. In fact, the drop-out rate of schoolgoing kids among these communities would also increase drastically. These communities, which are rightly called 'socially and educationally backward', traditionally have assigned a lower priority to education..and lack of incentives to kids from these communities would only strengthen their belief that education isn't worth the effort- in the countryside, a lot of poor families from these communities have always weighed the 'cost' of sending their children to school as compared with the income they gain from putting them to work. You have a right to think that creating 'social harmony' at your personal cost isn't such a bright idea - but I personally think that 'harmony' is essential- if there were no reservations, you'd be further dividing an already society - the share of the upper castes in the best educational institutions, best jobs.. and their share of its resources like land and other forms of wealth is already several times their share in the population. If the government gives up even token efforts at creating balance.. the lower castes would have no 'stake' in this country.
the second task I outlined, so very popular with 'rational' thinkers in the media and among those leading the fight for 'equality'... would ensure that children from all communities would get equal opportunities in the long run..But given the uniqueness of the backwardness among the lower castes, the second task wouldn't work if the first, which among other things means providing incentives such as reservations for them is not implemented.
Please understand: You probably wouldn't stop sending your children to school in the future because of your personal misfortune. There are some others like you who are even 'threatening' to go abroad (and take their 'brains'with them) because of this 'damned reservations'. But none of you'd stop sending your future 'kids' to school because you understand its value.
The 'socially and educationally' bakward communities - at least a large majority of them, crudely put, haven't really got to the stage wherein they come to consider education as 'indispensable'. And given their very limited resources, they'd probably quit without putting in any effort..if educational opportunities at the in the middle and the top were made less accessible to them.
Now to come back again to the question I asked you in the beginning, I've something more to add. You probably think you are a victim of 'reverse' discrimination on the basis of caste. And I'd agree with you - to a great extent. I agree with you to the extent that you are a victim of the caste system.
Now this is my second question: Now if caste played such a major role in undermining your chances of getting the right seat, why are you not questioning those fighting for 'equality' their insistence that caste doesn't determine a person's chances of education?
that's all I have to say for now...
The-anonymous commenter-who-said-'I HATE you because of your CASTE ( yes its not politically correct but thats how i feel)...thank you for this feeling.'
I appreciate your honesty - I wish more people were 'less politically correct' and more forthright like you. I wish the people at the Ramlila Maidan today had the guts to be as honest. I wish Barkha Dutt and Sagarika Ghosh and Rajdeep Sardesai and Prannoy Roy and Rajat Sarma and Vir Sanghvi and Hindu and Indian Express and Ht and TOI and The RSS and the communist bandwagon and the congress and..everyone else displayed your kind of honesty.
Then I wouldn't need to tell them 'it's not just the economy, stupid'.
siddhesh,
'The difference between our standpoints is very fundamental; I am against any reservation..'
what's my standpoint? and how is it fundamentally different from yours?
OBC Voice,
I have read all your comments with utmost interest.I must admit that your comments prompt thought...I am sure by now you are tired of people like me, who may be you think " JUST DONT GET THE POINT"
But lets not lose hope and lets keep trying to understand each other.
1.If you think I am one those people who want poor backward class people to ever come to the forefront, let me steer clear of this image.If a poor backward class person comes ahead, battles odds and proves his mettle I will be full of pride. You have put in so much effort in explaining that most of the backward class is not doing well in qualifying exam because their social background plays such a negative role. I totally agree.My battle was never against them.You must have seen my anger was against those who were selfishly and shamelessly using their caste when clearly they were in better financial conditions than me.
2.I know this for sure that all that's gonna after this bill is passed is that more and more of this completely informed, economically well-to-do OBC class will use this reservation as a remedy for their non-performance.
3.Seriously, OBCVoice I challenge you to accept that this is not gonna happen.
5.You trying to explain to me that the villager ,or poor guy who does not have money to even send his kid to school has heard about IIT and IIM and will used this reservation and that the OBC Class will be uplifted??
6.While your are vehemently supporting the cause of the poor OBC , I challenge you that most of the elite OBC has already made plans to appear for the CAT or IIT entrance with a feeling " Kisi tarah 80% mil jayein..baki reservation to hai hi"
7.Also, I noticed a reference to me being in the US. Though I dont want to change the focus of this comment and neither am I accountable for my personal choices I must speak up. As i see this in many blogs, bashing of Indians in US. Being in the US makes me no less patriotic than you.If I did not care for my country I would not be spending time on this issue at all.The reason for most Indians to be here is economic.I agree there is a sect of people who have given up on India and wanna settle here, but there is a equal number who are earning for a better life in India, A better life for their families. These people remit in Lakhs to their families in India. This money is being pumped into the Indian economy by purchases of property or other goods.Please pardon me for wanting a good life for my family . Also pardon my Dad who had similarly migrated from his village to the city for better job prospects...Also, please try to convince me that and OBC with similar opportunities and talent would not chose come to the US.
8.Most students who were from the category in my college suffered during the campus interview phase. Clearly a guy with 70% at class 12 never copes with Engg studies. They get bad marks in their semesters and when compaines come for campus interviews they are not even eligible to appear as most of the times they do not have the pre-requsite ALL-SEMESTERS 60% marks.You think a OBC guy who came through reservation will fare well when MOrgan and Stanley come for campus??
9.So you gave the guy a crutch to walk on and 4 years later he is as weak as he started.
Nothing will come out this bill. The Govt is taking everybody for a ride.And we all oppose this becuase we know through first hand experience that the one who needs to benefit will never with a reservation at a level as high as IIM, the ones who will benefit are people who are in cities ,have same or more facilities than the so called uppper class. They will get in only to realise that after being cushioned for 4 yrs of degree when the time to be tested again in the Job market will come they will once again fail. ...
And then government will come ahead will a reservation in the work place!!!.
rupali,
'.. that more and more of this completely informed, economically well-to-do OBC class will use this reservation as a remedy for their non-performance.'
this is based on observation of your neighbours?
'You trying to explain to me that the villager ,or poor guy who does not have money to even send his kid to school has heard about IIT and IIM and will used this reservation and that the OBC Class will be uplifted??'
such an original question. so explain to me why does India needIITms/IIts in the first place? Because all those smart kids going to those institutes will 'uplift' all those poor folks who don't even know what's an IIm/IIT ?
'6.While your are vehemently supporting the cause of the poor OBC , I challenge you that most of the elite OBC has already made plans to appear for the CAT or IIT entrance with a feeling " Kisi tarah 80% mil jayein..baki reservation to hai hi"'
heard of the creamy layer?
'Also, I noticed a reference to me being in the US. Though I dont want to change the focus of this comment and neither am I accountable for my personal choices I must speak up'
rupali, read my response.. i said 'some of you ..' and it might mean anyone..and my reference had nothing to do with patriotism and the rest of what you have to say.. my observation related to the tradition of assigning low priority to education among obcs..tha's it. please don't indulge in a rant without fully getting my point.
'8.Most students who were from the category in my college suffered during the campus interview phase'
i wish you'd stop presenting your personal observations as evidence of anything.
'9.So you gave the guy a crutch to walk on and 4 years later he is as weak as he started.'
It's the system that's being given the 'crutches' of reservations.. so that it can walk more steadily.
'Nothing will come out this bill.'
scrap reservations everywhere and you'll get to understand what came out all those reservations all these years..
finally, I see that you haven't bothered to find out from the people fighting for 'equality' what are their answers to my questions.. Neither have you bothered to answer those questions yourselves.
Isn't that revealing ? I am expected to explain , answer..the no-good-obc. But I am not supposed to question?
Rupali,
I do want answers to those questions. My first response to you was made in all sincerity, and i took a lot of effort to respond carefully.. Please do me the honour of considering my questions carefully and ..pose it before the people i mentioned and get their answers or answer them yourselves.
i want answers for once.
what's my standpoint? and how is it fundamentally different from yours?
[/quote]
Well if it is not then we don't have much of a debate then ;-)
I did assume from your comments that you are in favour of reservations as the last and final way to "uplift the poor and oppressed".
Three things I worry about reservations are
a) SC/ST/OBC students become complacent because of reservations given out to them and don't work hard enough.
b) Increase in discontent among the other students will lead to even larger racial bias, leading to suppression/ragging of quota students.
c) Fake caste certificates are a thriving business. So other "undeserving" students will leech the quotas.
Here's a column about how reservation and reservation politics fracture the hindu society on the whole. I verified the facts in the article from my fiancee who is from Kerala.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/09rajeev.htm
Regards,
Siddhesh
siddhesh,
I think you're misreading my fundamental position-My fundamental standpoint is this: dalits ans obcs and muslims should get their rightful share in education and jobs in the country.
And I think it's been delayed too long in the case of the obcs, at least in the central govt and the institutions/organisations it runs and in several north indian states.
and i want it now. If reservations are one method, fine. I don't mind if any other 'better' method is used.. as long as it is done now.
And please read my post'The scavenger's drum'.. the share for the dalits should be understood in the proper context.
And please don't glide from 'race' to 'economic classes' with such unthinking ease. please check your own basic ideas first : if the obcs are an 'economic class' then there's no point in 'socially uplifting' them, as you suggest. and if the dalits are a 'race' please tell the U.N., so.
Hi obc voice,
I understand and also agree with your demand for an equal share for everyone in the society with regards to education and all other basic needs. But my concern is only this: the society will simply be bifurcated more and more because of reservations.
But the strategy of "take from the rich and give to the poor" does not have any consideration for the hardwork that may have been put in by the richer man.
I know you will claim the "merit" argument as bullshit; even I know that there's more to merit than just marks. Marks are a result of hardwork, facilities and environment; not just hardwork. But even then we are choosing to *completely* ignore the hardwork.
I heard another very nice alternative to reservation on CNN-IBN yesterday. Instead of reserving seats for specific classes and castes and religions, one may have a grading system wherein one is ranked on his marks as well as economic condition.
There is another serious flaw in the reservation system which is being overlooked in many ways. Seats in the reserved categories often go empty because there are very less takers. A specific case has been the IITs where until 1989 the SC/ST seats used to go virtually empty. that was because nobody could clear the prerequisite cut-off. After 1989 they started conducting separate exams for SC/ST students and everyone below the cut-off would have to undergo an extra year of coaching to get them up to speed with the rest of the students. While this was a good idea to fill up seats, a side effect to that was that a bulk of the SC/ST students would drop out after the first year itself.
The root of the problem is at primary education, where backward classes and castes do not get the same quality of education that their richer counterparts do. Due to this very weak base, they are always playing catch-up for the rest of the time. Rather than reservations at a higher level we need reservations (upto 80%) at school level where students could be moulded better and enjoy the same quality of education as their richer counterparts.
Siddhesh
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