The Bare Truth
Sidharth, thanks for telling us the 'bare' truth about what you think of 'democracy'. Thanks for revealing all about your idea of 'equality'. Congratulations on seeing through your comrades' 'nautanki'!
posted by obc voice @ 2:45 AM
49 Comments:
dear obcvoice,
read this happening
and please explain how reservations are justified in such a situation?
(source:youthforequality.blogspot.com)
DEAR FRIENDS
I, Rajeev chawla, am a qualified Engineer from Thapar Institute of technology, Patiala 1979-1983 batch.
I would like to extend my whole hearted support for Anti-Reservation moment.
I would like to thank Mr Shiv Khera, for his guidance and support to this deserving and long awaited unfulfilled cause.
Here , I would like to share my own experience with the parents of children and those who are now students and have a great career to carve but for this reservation.
I passed my 10 + 2 exams with 80% marks in 1979 from CBSE . I was one of the candidiate for Punjab Engineering College, Chandigarh.I was offered a minor branch and I felt disgusted and humiliated when it was announced on P.A.System that if any S.C. or B.C. Student having just 45 % marks can join Electronics branch which was the haghest ranking engineering stream available.
It is a shame that the boy who could just pass the 10+2 exams was offered electronics branch and the boy who was having 80% marks was denied the course because he was not an s.c or b.c.
I would like to call all the parents of students who are now studying in 10th, 11th or 12th should come forward and contribute to this noble cause as it concerns each and every one of US.
COME FORWARD AND JOIN THE MOMENT . THIS SHOULD BE LAST WAR AGAINST RESERVATION. SO WAKE UP AND STRIKE HARD.
PLEASE MAIL THIS TO ALL YOU KNOW AND HAVE YOUR CONTRIBUTION IN ANTI RESERVATION
Yes Mr. Chawla,
This will be the last war against reservations. After that you can shut your butt and sit on your chair. Any minority that fears losing monopoly they have will whine like this before giving up. Remember South Africa?
hi krish..welcome.
yes, ..i wonder why they don't send me letters from dalit kids who have separate(from the upper caste kids) midday meals cooked for them in government schools..
Best way to deal with this OBCVoice.....
Just Ignore him....
Don't visit this blog...
He comes barking in other blogs... Let him come n bark there
anonymous,
you can bark on the streets, you can bark in the colleges, you can bark in the media..you can bark anywhere and everywhere ..in vain.
ignorance is bliss- you wouldn't know all that'd be in vain..
know this : the buck, ultimately, stops with the obcs.
lucifer,
'you have never debated for reservations but only and only against our protests and that too in completely illogical way...'
read my posts -i've provided as much explanation in there as to how this situation came about. as for debate, it would have been justified if it was conducted when Kaka Kalelkar submitted his report fifty years ago or even as late as when B.P.Mandal submitted his report in 1980. Now it's a question of delayed justice - not debate on irrelevant terms. and your protests are nothing but an expression of unjustified victimhood and pure selfishness.
OBC voice is simply biased.
but one thing is for sure...if the reservations do get hiked,condition of OBCs will worsen thats for sure....just wait and watch mr OBCvoice...you'll repent your own views...
anonymous,
yes, i am biased in favour of the majority of the country who do not even get a token share in its elite institutions. i am biased in favour of 80% of the people of this country who do not own even 40% of its primary resource -land. i am biased in favour of those 70%people in the country who do not have access to even the most basic of human necessities such as a proper toilet. i am biased in favour of those students who, despite facing the worst kind of adversities in their daily life, manage to study, graduate and aspire to rise above their circumstances.
i am biased in favour of their very human aspirations. you have views, anonymous - i don't. i am biased in favour of the truth.
More often than not I am compelled to ponder ...why doesn't India value talent?Talent, which is irrespective of caste, colour,sex or religion, is not dependent on one's social or economic backgrounds...mostly it is innate, which is further cultivated through hardwork and sincere dedication to learn and excel in a particular field.So what has caste got to do with it?
but what does India want?
No matter if you are talented or not, you must be attractive material to gather votes.Talent-a something in India that is never valued.
Take the case of reservations for STs,SCs and OBCs in the leading graduate and post graduate courses and the very respectable IIMs and IITs.IIT-the third best institution in the world.A place known to assess pure talent and brain...but even IIT was not spared from the government's scourge to gather votes from the OBCs.Now just imagine...50% of the students in IIT will be there due to the reserved quota.They know they needn't work hard to get in,because half the seats are already reserved for them.They needn't even care for being there because the government is working upon the reserved quota for them in jobs,also in private sector.Since the last 50 years they have got their share of jobs and education through reservations and the same is expected for the next 50 years.What benefit would they get from this anyway?Is this making them at par with the non-backward groups?Or distancing them from others?Why is the government playing 'divide and rule' part 2?
I have tried my level best to comprehend what exactly is the benefit of these reservations.Few days before I have heard that foreign professional universities have increased the quota for Indian students.Because they value talent and know that Indian minds are the best amongst the world.Its a pity that the leaders of this country are unaware of this fact and feel no need to stop this brain drain.Some even encourage and support it thinking it would benefit the country in the form of accrual of higher remittances from abroad.That is how talent is drained out of the country.That is why intellectual people prefer to move and settle abroad where there is value for their talent and abilities,leaving behind India the land of caste divisions,a place where you have to fight and fight for justice which you will never get....a place where you exhaust yourself after years of indefatigable study and an OBC walks away with your aspired job with the reserved quota.HA! And then you say...India is 'developing'...
With you obcvoice. Thing is, people on the other side who are protesting against reservations have never known what being discriminated against means, though apparently they continue to discriminate, with their protests being the highest form of such a discrimination.
manee,
'mostly it is innate, which is further cultivated through hardwork and sincere dedication to learn and excel in a particular field.So what has caste got to do with it?'
as you say, it's further cultivated through hard work and dedication - as you go down the caste ladder it becomes progressively more difficult to access facilities that help you 'cultivate.. 'your talent. conduct this experiment : select a 100 newborn kids from across the caste spectrum and give them the best kind of facilities for growing up, learning etc., with little scope for prejudices from the outside world to come in - after 18 years, say, you'd find that talent or the lack of it is evenly spread..this is a crude kind of experiment, but that's all i can think of for the moment.
what part does caste play in grooming or hindering talent from being 'further cultivated'?
i mentioned the caste ladder earlier, so let's modify it a little and call it a staircase with ,say, 100 steps.. a hundred people are arranged on the staircase at say a particular moment.. let's call it 'x'. around 10 are on the fiftieth step, 60 on the twenty fifth step and and around thirty at the bottom. you start a race - how many people from each section would reach the top at ,say, a moment 'y'? let's say 8 from the first group, four from the second and two from the third... but the race doesn't stop here (let's call this moment 'y' the class 10-12 stage you referred to earlier).. but goes on continues ,non-stop, for another 100 metres on 'level ground'. at moment z, how many people from each group finish the race? four from the first group, one from the second and none from the third.
so how do you distribute the kilo of grain, say, that is the prize, at the end of the race?
let's say the organizers themselves are are part of an ealier batch of the first group .. so all the four competitors from the first group gets a share and the competitor from the second group also gets a share but there is none for the third group. and the organizers, in order to make it seem like it's fair race, dole out two shares for the third group in order to compensate for the disadvantage they started from.
so what's the score?
forty percent of the first group get a share, 1.6% of the second and around 6.6% of the third.
so that's the situation, crudely put, the situation at iit/iims and other central institutions right now- i don't have to tell you to assume, that the first group is the upper castes, the second group is the obcs and muslims and the third group is the dalits and tribals.
and plese don't fudge certain facts to make your point -there's no reservations for obcs until now in centrally run institutions - and the whole focus of the current debate is on them. so when you generalize :' They know they needn't work hard to get in,because half the seats are already reserved for them.They needn't even care for being there because the government is working upon the reserved quota for them in jobs,also in private sector.Since the last 50 years they have got their share of jobs and education through reservations and the same is expected for the next 50 years'.. the history of reservations is old but the obcs got them, effectively, in most states only in the seventies. and reservations for both -dalits and obcs has never been fully or sincerely implemented.. so what you are effectively saying is that everyone should bemoan 'talent' or (the upper castes ,more correctly) is being 'killed'- is that your fight for equality - to ignore the fact that this was essentially an unequal race?
Dear Friends,
I have just read and signed the online petition:
"Reservation in Private Sector Not Required."
hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petitionservice, at:
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/RESPVT/
I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you mightagree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and considersigning yourself.
Best wishes,
devil's advocate
Arjun Singh knows nothing...and thus implements 27% reservations for OBCs...shame shame!!
lucifer,
you've made a good point. in fact,two very good points (and i hope dharmesh is reading this one because he raised similar issues elsewhere).
i'll try to summarize them:
#1.:why reserve seats in specialised areas ?
#2.:why reserve seats at all in higher education when what's required is strengthening of school education?
they've been made earlier, so why do i call them good now?..earlier, they were made alongwith a deluge of other irrelevant information, posers and abuse.. my replies too were not read properly..
well anyway, my response:
#1. If you generally accept the analogy of a race i made in my reply to manee then
a) would you agree that there hasn't been a 'fair' race until now, because if there had been one, there'd have been as large a share of competitors from all the groups in the open category as there are from the upper castes? so, when you think 'your seats' are being 'stolen' by candidates from the reserved categories, please understand that those are their seats - they'd never have been yours if there had been fair competition, meaning if those students hadn't been burdened with as many disadvantages as they are/were, until now. therefore they(other groups) deserve those seats, given the condition that they qualified in the entrance exam and have obtained a certain high score, as measured against other candidates from their own groups.
b. so in a way some of the upper castes have been 'stealing' their seats(of the other groups) until now. but i don't think that'd be a fair conclusion, given the fact that you'd been working very hard for those seats and you are a
competent applicant and your candidacy needs to be addressed as well- so to ensure that everyone gets a fair chance, the seats need to be increased. that's the crux of what the government's thinking now ... but those leading your fight for 'equality' are against it because given the infrastructural constraints the seats can't be increased. this is where we come to the second point..
2.:when what's needed is strengthening of school education why are reservations being imposed on higher education? given the fact that your 'comrades' fighting for equality are so 'pragmatic' as to think that infrastructure in specialised education can't be expanded and strengthened fast enough, in say one to five years, what makes you think that infrastructure in school education, which is a several times more formidable task than the former, can be expanded and strengthened as fast? or that all other social and other disdvantages that the obcs and dalits are burdened with can be mitigated within as short a time?
wouldn't you agree that it'd require at least a decade? - and given the record of the government in the last fifty years wouldn't you agree that that'd be impossible? so, despite all the disadvantages they face, if some aspirants from the lower castes have come to the stage of competition now, do you think it's fair that they should be denied of opportunities in higher education? and if you still think they don't deserve those seats.. i don't see how you can justify the existence of elitist institutions in a pluralistic society that cater to only a select few groups.
in my view, this is what needs to be done:
# expand infrastructure and the reach of higher education so that neither the upper castes nor the 'other groups' are denied a fair chance..if you don't expand the infrastructure not all deserving candidates from the upper castes can be accommodated..and if you don't expand access so that higher education reaches the 'other groups' there'd be no incentive for students from these groups to take education seriously (which is one of the reasons why they are called 'socially and educationally backward').
#expand infrastructure and standards of school education so that students from all groups get a fair chance ultimately. this is a much tougher task and needs to be accompanied by serious efforts at eliminating all kinds of harmful social institutions.. foremost of those being caste.
lucifer, i keep myself informed on this issue.. and i am aware of who's saying what? i know of opinions of mr.balakrishnan, and other profs like mr.indiresan, and profs from iims and economists like mr.bhalla and ms.ghosh.. so please don't come to the conclusion that i haven't given this issue serious thought.. but what i'd like to know is whether those leading your agitation are giving all aspects of the issue serious thought?
#why are they insisting on eliminating caste from admissions when they are aware that candidates from the lower castes seem to exhibit poorer performance,on an average, at competitive exams which seems to suggest that 'merit', as we see it now, is largely caste-determined? aren't they antagonising people from these lower castes ..at a time when they need everyone's support? remember, this round of reservations is only for centrally run institutions - why drag in reservations everywhere as an issue that needs to be 'reviewed'?
# why are they compounding their own problems by playing to the gallery, cheered on by an irresponsible media (do you think barkha dutt even cares for your careers as much as, say, even somebody like me does? your comrades are the current 'indian idols' for the media..good fuel for the TRPs... nothing more) instead of focussing on your own rights? ..just some thoughts.
v,
welcome aboard. thanks for your support.
Going through the interview I could only feel that he has only Government and Parliament as his shield to protect him against the stupid, orthodox decision he has taken.
He dint have answers to any of the questions. What sort of minister he is that he doesn't even have that much of farsightedness to judge as to how much time will be required for setting up new infrastructures and recruitments.
He is a bull headed fellow, adamant on his thoughts,
Taking it against his ego to rethink upon what he spoke.
If this thing happens to us, tomorrow any Tom Dick and Harry like him will
Come and start taking any useless decisions and hamper our very future.
Some people think uselessly from their less used minds to take useless decisions.
The argument that "government is only targeting the vote bank" is well understood.Point is, for people protesting against reservations, go ahead and protest if you want to, but protest for the right reasons. And the reason should be : scarcity of enough seats in higher education today, with or without reservations. If you feel 27% extra reservation is affecting your chances of getting that coveted seat, don't attack the reserved category, instead ask the govt. to first increase the seats at least to an extent that negates your losses in terms of number of available seats to you. All this hue and cry abt extra investment reqd for better infrastructure and faculty for increasing the seats is just that, hue and cry. The govt. is not spending enough on higher education, so protest against it. Problem is, most of you protesting against reservation give the most outrageous reasons why reservation should not take place. That has already been discussed and analysed at length on this site, so I needn't say more.
A person who has prepared well and worked hard for any exam and doesn't get through is bound to feel the resentment if he/she knows that some seats at the outset are already beyond their reach, but direct that resentment towards where it should actually go, and not towards the reserved categories.
Remember, if its difficult for u to get through an exam, its AS difficult for a reserved category person to get through. I am sure all those protesting against reservations can never understand that the above statement actually makes sense.
thanks v, couldn't have put it better.
lucifer,
at the outset, let me explain the purpose my previous comments - it was not to engage in a debate/discussion on 'reservations' as such. it was only to clarify my position with regard to what further needs to be done to improve educational opportunities for all sections of indian society in the future... reservations are a given, in the sense there's no other comparable mechanism at present to ensure that dalits/obcs get a fair share in higher education. there's no compromise on that - a major fallacy that the upper castes in india seem to entertain is that it's only politicians like vpsingh/arjun singh/ laloo etc., who put these 'wrong notions' into the obcs' heads..what you seem to ignore when you make these assumptions is that the obcs like the dalits have evolved a cosciousness of their own which has certain attributes like aspirations of mobility etc., and a recognition of their rights. so please understand, it's not the politicians who are 'giving' us these seats, we are taking what's rightfully ours (i wish you'd read 'v''s perspective too on this ).
that said, coming to your responses to what i said on two major issues that pointed to:
1,increasing seats in higher education
2,expanding school education and eliminating caste-related disadvantages..
i agree with you that increasing seats in higher education is difficult but when you say:
' I AGREE THAT PRIMARY EDUCATION IS A FORMIDABLE TASK BUT NOT AS MUCH AS HIGHER EDUCATION.'
forget the same country, are we living on the same planet?
improving education in schools means improving education/health/social harmony in 6,00,000 villages and thousands of towns across the country in 28 states etc.,and ...improving facilities in a few dozen centrally run institutions(because the current round of reservations affects only those..the states are already implementing reservations)...can you compare the two tasks?
and if you wish to rope in private participation to improve all higher education institutions (including those in the states)i'm all for it. (also other measures that you suggest like talent searches etc.,)but reservations stay - because these efforts should have been started fifty years ago when the kalelkar commision submitted its report saying the backward classes were not doing too well in education. nothing was done by the centre for twenty five years until the mandal commision submitted its recommendations confirming the earlier report, more or less. and it was litigation, and upper caste interests and so-called 'debates' that delayed its full implementation until now. it's the sincerity of the ruling classes, the upper castes, that's suspect..not the rights of the backward classes..
p.s about the iits fuelling growth in the knowledge industry - yes, they had a hand in it.. but there were other more important factors fuelling the growth,like good economic sense.
p.p.s . shouldn't you ask the medical council of india and the ima to suspend those doctors' licences and memberships? they seem to find nothing wrong with those doctors.
still_water,
as they say, you run deep..
about the monikers (more popular wisdom, but please bear with me)- one possible explanation for them is that empty vessels make a lot of noise..people who are the least indian(and perhaps the most selfish) do have to keep proclaiming, loudly, that they're 'true/ultra/extra/pure indian' to justify their one-sided idea of 'equality'.. or their dubious claims about their brain-power and merit (when there there hasn't been a fair competition until now) only because of securing higher ranks in so-called 'competitive exams'.
still_water, welcome. you've considerably brightened my morning.
moreywish,
'Accept the Mandal II peacefully or otherwise accept the formula of reservation on the basis of Population.'
i don't think they have the good sense to see that larger picture. or to get off their self-created pedestals and walk on terra firma to understand certain ground realities. Phule? i bet hardly one in ten of them would have heard of him!
kind of you to share your views more.. as the jingle goes: yeh dil maange...
hey all you anti reservation ppl...
let the reservations take place...the very happening of this event will give words and evidence to all your arguments...for eg
1.OBCs will lose all respect and will be looked down upon after they make it to the institutions.
2.They will never become uplifted as they will become too dependent on reservations,and there will be huge decline in merit and talent of the OBCs,if any.(lol)
3.And all you talented GC students just dont worry...talent is like a river-if one hurdle comes(like reservations) you will find your path somewhere else.Talent cannot be stagnant like the OBC,ST,SC students' calibre,which even does not exist.They will just be rolling stones in your flow...and just like the river flow,initially they do try to make way with the current of the water...but after some time...they will settle at some bank while you will carry on till you meet your goal.
three cheers for you all GC students...
hip hip hurray!!
" anonymous,
yes, i am biased in favour of the majority of the country who do not even get a token share in its elite institutions. i am biased in favour of 80% of the people of this country who do not own even 40% of its primary resource -land. i am biased in favour of those 70%people in the country who do not have access to even the most basic of human necessities such as a proper toilet. i am biased in favour of those students who, despite facing the worst kind of adversities in their daily life, manage to study, graduate and aspire to rise above their circumstances.
i am biased in favour of their very human aspirations. you have views, anonymous - i don't. i am biased in favour of the truth."
I LOVE THIS COMMENT OF YOURS
we-supportobc-reservations,
thank you..isn't that what it all boils down to?
still-water,
you do bring a fresh perspective- yes, i do personally believe that a monitoring mechanism is necessary, to quell doubts on either side.
I think we should all read this article on the hypocrisy of AIIMS doctors. They use internal quota to get into PG course and then dare to speak about merit when it comes to the underprevileged groups in the country.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1543278.cms
mandal was 25 yrs back, and they used data which was even older.
since then entire new generation which has grown up.
shouldnt there be reconsideration ??
THE WORST FORM OF INEQUALITY IS WHEN WE TRY TO MAKE UNEQUAL THINGS EQUAL.
THATS THE PROBLEM WHY RESERVATIONS HAVE ALWAYS FAILED.
hi obc voice,
its really pathetic and shame on you people. why do you want to get to AIIMS or IIT if you dont deserve it? i would say this quota system is a crap. how you will get to feel the equality if you dont follow a fair procedure in getting into the college's.
Hi,
Read your blog. Have a few comments. Please read with a rational mind open to ideas.
I dont know if you have ever faced the brunt of being in a so called upper class. If not just spend a few moments to read my experience.
I came from a middle class background.Dad served in tthe private sector and was the only source of income. He made it clear to me that if and only if I get admitted to the Govt engg college will we be able to afford a enginnering degree education. For your information fees for a year in govt college was 4000 rs at my time and in pvt colleges the fees was 32000 on paper + a minimum of 10000 extra.
Under that pressure i worked hard for entire class 12. I had only one coaching class for math under an elderly teacher i respect like God . He took only 75 rs a month for Math class.
I went to no other fancy classes.My dream was the computer stream in the govt college. Because of it's name that college has the best campus recruitment which offers a means to get a job with no "JACK" . It means a way to rise in economic stature and sort of wipe out the past.
I got 96.33 % in my class 12. My father had tears in his eyes as he felt that I had fulfilled his dream..He got me a bouquet of flowers and a gold ring that I yet wear , the day the results were declared.
I applied and then the dream ended. In the open category the computer stream closed at close to 98%. Yes!!! There were 20 people atleast who had the same percentage. Meaning 20+ people with 97 in the open category.Such is the competition!!!
I did not get admitted to the stream I wanted . I had all the other private colleges open for me. some of best after the govt college for the stream I wanted. But I knew i cannot afford to get into a private college.My elder sister was in a private college already.
I chose a stream i did not want. I came home in shock.Many people who I knew had lesser percentage than me got in easily. These people were very well to do.Owned cars and a big house.
It was my time for tears that night. It is a feeling you will never know. My father consoled me. in vain.
Think again abt a person who worked so hard only to see someone else walk off with what was rightfully his/hers.
Did u hear in the interview of Arjun singh that 50% of seats remain vacant and 50% of the others take more than 6 yrs to get their degree.
I had people in my class who had taken 7 yrs to pass a 4 yr degree.
I never even knew about the caste of my friends untill some of them got admissions they did not deserve.
So, for middle class people like us merit is the only chance for us to get into the right places. And we work hard for that.We pay our taxes, dont arson or burn anything, we live normal lives and then some one weilding a caste certificate jumps ahead in the line giving us a huge slap on the face.
I respect ur difference of opinion but you look like a classical example of a person untouched by this issue..May be I am wrong.
rupali shrivastava.
i think i can really understand the emotions you have connected with the reservations issue.I have tried myself best to explain the same to OBCvoice,but he is adamant and tries to prove me wrong through his statistical data and other logical reasonings.
I have given up explaining anything to him becoz his mind is like a teacup full with his own beliefs upto the brim,so if i still try to pour in some of my own,it will only flow out...futile as it may seem.
OBCvoice,
i hve tried my best to understand you and be understood by you,yet i could not feel even once how 'good' reservations can prove to be.I believe you have a point everywhere in your arguments saying that an underpriviledged lower class student has the right to reservations,but still im waiting for you to justify how it is fair to snatch away the seat from a deserving upper class student like rupali.
God knows how many rupalis exist today and how many are destined to be created..and the we all are prepared to bury the injustice done to them in the coffin of reservations.I think I have nothing more to say.
But these Doctors on the streets are not doing nautanki but are genuinely concerned about people like rupali.But then you can feel only for OBCs since your heart is also divided on the basis of caste.
And dear rupali,I can only pray to GOd for you and others with the same fate that you achieve what you DESERVE and im so happy to see that you can say that you have achieved everything in your life WITH YOUR OWN EFFORTS and not through the crutches of reservations.Believe me,it a blessed thing.God bless you.
And yeah..
What i meant through my post was misinterpreted by you.
The argument of talent that you give about 100 students isolated to be provided similar conditions would have almost similar talents.
I think I am highly amused to hear that outcome since its Good to be viewed as an abstract thought but practically its impossible.Had it been the way you put it,then all the students going to a rich school(not a general one so that you may not again start the argument of difference in opportunities,)should be getting more or less the same percentage,say 95% and above since the teachers teach all the students the same.I hope i dont have to explain you this thing that all the students are not the same no matter how hard you try and then comes in the concept of multiple intelligences (try searching on google about it.)
Here i meant talent,PURE INNATE INSTINCTIVE TALENT.You know Mozart?He had it.He started playing the key on piano at the age of 5 and composing songs when he was just about 7.That is the talent i was talking about.'Cultivating' word here meant that through his immense drive to be a musician and desire he could find innovative ideas to play music.He never looked for priviledges of any sort as he paved his own way.That was the jist of my comment.
Secondly
"the history of reservations is old but the obcs got them, effectively, in most states only in the seventies. and reservations for both -dalits and obcs has never been fully or sincerely implemented.."
Well in my sentence i have encompassed all past,present and future so pinpointing me the time doesnt arise.And yea,are you just fighting for 27% for OBCs or you appreciate 22.5 also for STs and SCs?Well last 50 years i meant for STs and SCs...and sure it is destined to be continued in future right?so 'Since the last 50 years they have got their share of jobs and education through reservations and the same is expected for the next 50 years' got it,NOW?
NEVER in my post i have ever tried to focus on the facts and data the way you do,so dont expect me to explain all the data explicitly,im focussing on the damage the reservations do and how merit is diluted and driven away from the country's domains.Im more or less a thinker and not a researcher like you.
vanchinathan,
'i would say this quota system is a crap.'
i agree. go on, scrap the quotas.
'manee,
'The argument of talent that you give about 100 students isolated to be provided similar conditions would have almost similar talents'
go back to what i had to say:
'select a 100 newborn kids from across the caste spectrum and give them the best kind of facilities for growing up, learning etc., with little scope for prejudices from the outside world to come in - after 18 years, say, you'd find that talent or the lack of it is evenly spread'
did I say anywhere that they have similar talents? I said talent, or lack of it would be more evenly spread. i wish you wouldn't come back without trying to understand fully what I am trying to say.
and the rest of your comment.. what shall i say?.. you deserve a place beside mozart and other 'innate' geniuses.
Talent or the lack of it would be evenly spread?Do you know what the word 'even' means?
A dictionary says:
even
1.Equal in degree or extent or amount; or equally matched or balanced
2.Being level or straight or regular and without variation as e.g. in shape or texture; or being in the same plane or at the same height as something else (i.e. even with)
How wouldn't then that word lead me to say "u mean they would have similar talents(similar meaning either more or less,but the degree of talent is almost the same}"?
If you meant something else,try to be more exact in your choice of words.Waiting for a more sane reply.
P.S: BTW you,for a change,have figured out something about me correct.
You know what?I AM a genius! Not a Mozart type music genius but a genius in maths.Like Einstien probably.And an innate one at that.
And I think that is the reason why I dont want other geniuses to move out of the country and their seats be given to the 'deprived' OBCs.If OBCs lack this 'innate' talent i refer to,they can be given acquired-talent but certainly not reservations being gifted to them merely out of sympathy,discounting their calibre,if any,altogether.
Lastly,take it from me,OBCs will be BCs forever because they look upto SOMEONE else for 'upliftment' but people like Rupali know how to struggle and achieve their goal.That is the reason why even 59 years of independence could not 'uplift' them.Even the rich and uplifted OBC families lack this pure talent.
manee,
'If OBCs lack this 'innate' talent i refer to,they can be given acquired-talent but certainly not reservations being gifted to them merely out of sympathy,discounting their calibre,if any,altogether.'
so you believe the obcs lack 'innate talent' and can be given acquired talent...
so you mean to say the obcs are an inferior race of humans or perhaps an inferior sub-species of human beings?
'If OBCs lack this 'innate' talent'
please re-read it...and re-re-read it until you notice the word 'if'.
IF is a conditional.Got it?
And IF OBCs have innate talent,they wouldn't need reservations.Your stand.
OH by the way...my IQ is 136,only 3% of total population has that...so i really am a genius.thatnks for telling me.
manee,
you haven't answered my question.
i have tried to explain you the irrelevence of your very question.
manee,
i'll wait until you answer my question.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Q.so you believe the obcs lack 'innate talent' and can be given acquired talent...
A:IF they do lack 'innate' talent,they can be.If they dont,they dont need reservations.
Q:so you mean to say the obcs are an inferior race of humans or perhaps an inferior sub-species of human beings?
A:no.
Now let ME ask you a question.
Just suppose,I am from a BC family.I dont have money in my house to even have food twice a day (though not applicable to every BC family,but here we are assuming),and my parents have to do labour work in order to earn even a day's food.
However inside me,i have a latent desire to make it big in the field of engineering.I want to be an engineer because I am fascinated by the very field.I try my best to gather information through the resources available to me and i learn about IIT.That is the time I decide i want to be an IITian.Now you tell me what is that i need to get what i want?
1.Plain money?
2.Books and other study material on IIT-JEE?
3.Access to a good tuition or at least a good teacher who can teach me?
4.reservation of my seat?
Since the financial condition of my family is deplorable,i do not even have an access to a good school.The local government school lacks such specialised training so even if I somehow pass 12th,i am still not capable enough to be an IITian.Means I dont deserve it yet...(Coz i believe, first deserve-then desire).If the governement is proposing 27% reservations for the people of my caste and I find 'upper class' medicos,the obvious outcome should be im pro reservations(coz that would give me an assured seat without putting that much of efforts as required) and I am instilled with the feeling-anti reservation students are anti OBCs.Then it becomes a matter of caste for me and i am out supporting the reservations for two main reasons(1.IIT will be easy with reservations FOR ME,2.i hate anti OBC ppl)
But then it is just an assumption...my conscience wouldnt allow me to sit on a seat which i dont DESERVE no matter how much i DESIRE it.And deep inside i would question my country-Why couldnt you make me capable enough that i could go and get that seat myself?
A good mothers task is to prepare her children so that they can face the world themselves,they develop the capability to get the things of their choice-they should develop this much ability.And if the mother is unable to provide her children with this much resource,she is a failure! If instead she claims "dont worry beta,meri IIT mein jaan pehchaan hai,tumhare liye ek seat reserve karwa di hai,jao lelo"...tell me how fair would that be on the student who should have been sitting on that seat?Leave that,how fair would that be with me?That throughout my youth i wasnt given a fair chance to develop my innate talents plus the acquired abilities and now my mom is doing this 'ehsaan' on me?Giving me crutches when i could have been running on my own?If I ask myself"why am I an IITian?" I wouldnt like it if I get the answer"because of reservations."
Second IMPORTANT fact:
If somehow you were led to believe that i blindly decided to oppose these reservations then you are highly mistaken.
When i first learnt about reservations and its percentage,i made sure it was a part of constitution.after that i talked to my uncle(an ex IITian) and my friend (IIT-3rd year) about what happens to the OBCs once they are INTO iit?YOu know what they said?
OBCs are not able to survive the highly competitive environment.The complicated Maths Equations and problems frustrates them and they get irritated to see that their co-students are catching up so fast.That is the reason why half the students usually drop out of IIT and rest of them take more than the stipulated time to complete their course.This points to one direction-reservations are an eyewash...'upliftment' of backward classes encompasses a lot more.Had the upliftment been more practical,and if I were asked "why am I here?" i could have proudly said "Because I deserve it.Thanks to my mother."
Hope you get the point.
manee,
'...my IQ is 136,only 3% of total population has that...so i really am a genius.thatnks..'
if you don't think the obcs are an inferior race then you must agree that there is a possibility of around 3% of them being 'geniuses'. And the rest of their (obc) population would have, more or less, the same percentage/s of above average, average and below average people as any other class of people. the same can be said of the dalits, muslims and other minorities and of course the upper castes.
So what I meant when I described the '100 newborn babies..' experiment was this : if you put them in isolation, away from all the social (meaning caste) related factors, then the outcome would reflect the fact that students from each group would have the same percentages of 'geniuses', above average students, average and below average students. Here the social composition of the 100 students follows the social composition of the indian population : around 52 obc students, 23 dalits and tribals, 15-17 upper castes and so on. Your idea of students going to the same rich school doesn't reflect that : 1)the social composition of most 'rich' schools is lopsided.. In india,right now, a majority of students at any 'rich' school would be from only one section of indian society - the upper castes. And 2)when I said 'isolation' i meant away from the pernicious 'social (caste)related influences' of indian society. Students going to a 'rich' school are not exempt from caste-related influences/factors. So your example is flawed on the two counts i cited above.
I thought you being a 'genius' and all, would have understood this when i first suggested the experiment.
p.s : don't go too much by those silly i.q. tests, i scored around 148 when i was your age.
p.p.s: and about einstein, he used to flunk in math/physics tests in school. if we go by conventional intelligence testing measures he can't be called a 'genius'.
p.p.p.s: mozart was the favorite composer of the nazis. The nazis, of course, believed they (the germans) were a superior race. They often cited mozart's genius as an example of their superiority.
Are you trying to build such a theory around india's upper castes?
Then you had better stop using 'einstein' and others like him who belong to 'inferior' races like the jews to buttress your arguments(?)
manee,
i just saw your latest comment, after posting my response to the one before that. i'll respond later.
do you find malicious pleasure in calling upper class people suffering from 'superiority complex'?
Dear obcvoice,
i am absolutely amazed at your patience with trying to explain to absolute no brainers and sickeningly racist beings like manee the logic behind reservations. really hats off to you!
anonymous,
'i am absolutely amazed at your patience with trying to explain to absolute no brainers and sickeningly racist beings like manee the logic behind reservations.'
someone has to find the patience - when you have smart people like pratap bhanu mehta, beteille on the one hand and 'sexy' people like ravi shankar and nafisa ali on the other, telling the young that the caste system doesn't exist - your job is made doubly difficult.
thanks for your kind words.
Anonymous,
I think I should stop discussing the things here with OBCvoice,i had a single hope,maybe discussing all the probelms in detal i will Understand OBC community problems better and He will be able to understand the actual viewpoint of anti reservation protesters.
But I believe this should be my last comment.I think I should accept one thing that OBCvoice is trying to explain me-Casteism exists in the worst of its form in India,and it will never be uprooted,thanks to people like you.
OBCvoice...my last words to you....
"May reservations for OBCs go on forever."
I know i wasnt supposed to be posting comments here any longer,but this one was important.Important for me,because i want to avoid those sleepless nights i suffer whenever im wronged.So I needed to state my clarifications;stating it is more important for me than reading it for you is.Also,my justification here is certainly NOT aimed at any empathy or sympathy that i may seem to expect from you (not anymore at least-empathy i mean,never sympathy) and your supporters,but rather,as i said,i am writing it as a part of my own peace of mind.Reading it or ignoring it is entirely your personal decision.
anonymous' comment says-(and you seem to agree to it) "absolute no brainers and sickeningly racist beings like manee" is an evidence of the futility I am getting being here,but beyond that its the proof of how AWEFULLY i have been misunderstood.My heart knows what all i feel when I see the poor,the needy...when i see the rickshaw pullar sweating in the sun completely oblivious of what we all call air-conditioners,what all i feel when i see the new born kids of the construction labourers half naked...sitting on the concrete playing with stones...what i feel when i see old beggars barely able to see or walk...i know it,and i dont believe i need to support reservations in order to prove that i can be as compassionate as these pro reservationists.Coz deep down I know,nothing ABSOLUTELY nothing will reach to these roadside beggars,these unfortunate children of construction workers,or the poor rickshaw pullars when the so called 'benefits' of a reserved seat in IIT or AIIMS would seep down to that level-a level where people dont get food twice a day.Even after 27% hike in quota,i will still see them in dejected poverty as today.Difference will only be in the number of people migrating as a part of brain drain,larger % of vacant seats in these educational institutions,more strife between the youth on the name of caste.Sorry,but if being against reservations makes me an absolutely no brainer and a sickeningly racist being,then what am I to explain?Do I?
OBviously, being understood by you or anybody else here,is not going to vindicate me ,nor being misunderstood by you will ever signify my failure.But failure it is-for India's unity and the belief in me that we Indians have the heart that empathises with all human beings,untill you came in and annihilated my perceptions by introducing me to the draconian casteism that exists in even today's youth-majorly in their psyches(even you).I dont know whether i should thank you or curse you for the same.
It was never a war between you and me of "who convinces whom"....rather it was an abortive attempt to understand and be understood.Not you,but surely I was wrong when I presumed that pro reservation people would still at least be able to listen to what I would say...never knowing my views will be condemned and I will be humiliated on this otherwise 'great' blog.
As far as my supposedly narcissic, aristrocratic comments about Mozart etc are concerned-they began where your taunts ended (e.g. "you should be placed with the geniuses...blah blah").I did it because I dont get mad-I get even.LIke a kindness for a kindness; an insult for an insult.Fair enough.
Anyway, thanks for giving me your precious time,now and before,and i assure you,i will not bother you from now on.
P.S: Being highly patient,benevolent and empathising person as you are,if there is anything in this world you could still do for a sickeningly racist like me,dont reply to this comment.I shall feel highly obliged.
P.P.S: IQ score of 148 huh?? Highest IQ ever attained by any musician is 149 and considering you at 148,that too at my age is an inkling tot he fact...you just may be MOZART in disguise.Try your hands at music sometime,you can prove to be a prodigy.
manee,
please reread my response to the anonymous commenter. i never implied i agreed with him totally. I only observed that the young, meaning people like you, are getting only one-sided information.
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