obc voice

Friday, June 02, 2006

Molten lead in my shudra ears -or- The Scavenger's Drum 2

I now return to the points of contention raised by the students fighting for 'equality' I referred to in the post - 'The Scavenger's Drum'. These points have now metamorphosed into a 'Charter of Demands' - a new age Magna Carta, if you go by the reverence with which the media is so painstakingly trying to drape this whole drama.You might assume that they have 'come down' a lot, that they have 'modified their earlier rigid stance', that they are being very 'reasonable' etc., and it's the government which is being 'adamant', and is 'showing no sign of trying to listen to them even 14..15..16 days after the strike began'. Your assumption is wrong on both counts : the charter is actually no different from the earlier points - only their phrasing has been changed, and the government isn't being adamant - it has already conceded considerable ground by making it clear that the seats would be increased to ensure no 'meritorious' general category student would be deprived of his chance of admission. And after several days of repeated posturing before the camera that the quota decision is 'irrevocable', the government is slowly revealing what it actually has in mind, what kind of hectic parleying is going on in the corridors of power.. to protect the 'gurukuls' of modern India from pollution. To ensure that upper caste students wouldn't have to face the compounded ignominy of not just sharing the same classroooms and hostels as the shudras but also actually having to give up some of their places to the unclean. Witness how politicians on either end of the ideological spectrum share so very identical concerns : 'merit' should not be compromised, the 'poor' among the upper castes also need reservations, 'the creamy layer' should be skimmed off. I don't remember either the Sangh cohorts or the communists ever having pleaded or argued for, or even raised the issue of implementation of that untouched part of the Mandal Commission recommendations (which mandated reservations for the OBCs in Central Government-run educational institutions) in the last thirteen years since the first part was implemented. Another vital component of this very sophisticated mechanism of dilution and derailment is/will be the involvement of twice-born-but-never-retired-and-much-lionised legal minds - which had actually begun the day this strike was announced but is coming out into the open only now.

Those who had witnessed the Act 1 of this Mandal drama in the early nineties must be feeling a sense of deja vu. Would this also take another three years to go through? Or would this also be implemented only in part and the OBCs would have to wait for another thirteen years, and another school-going generation, for the government to come around to the unfinished part?

The second point raised by the striking medicos outlined in my post 'The Scavenger's Drum' was this:
'...Two, when asked what if the seats were increased to accommodate students from the general category..he tried to explain to the reporter that given the infrastructure and the 'unsustainability' of the proposal (of the increase) he wasn't in favour of any increase,...'

What does that mean? It means that the medicos think a) that the existing infrastructure and faculty and staff can't support an increase in the number of seats and b) an increase in infrastructure, faculty etc., has been long overdue and as it hasn't been done until now there's no reason to believe the government will do it in the very short period it has before the quota is implemented. And I agree with the medicos. Just look at what happened to the promise of raising state spending on education to 6% of the Gross Domestic Product, an idea first mooted by the Kothari Commission in 1964 and endorsed by the National Educational policies in 1968 and 1986 and 1992. Over the last forty years, the Centre and the States, together, have been 'struggling' to raise spending to at least half the figure recommended. So don't you find the idea of increasing seats 'unsustainable'?

So if I agree with the medicos, what is this post all about?

It's about exploring a mindset that perceives reality in stark white and grey tones. Which looks at the world and sees : us and the unimportant. An attitude which says : heads I win, tails you lose. That will shirk off responsibility with the same ease as it would demand accountability from others.

'And you know the estimated cost of increasing facilities to accomodate quota candidates is put at Rs 8,000 crore,...' That was an anonymous commenter fighting for 'equality'. In his view, the increase is not due to the fact that the government wants to ensure the general category seats are not reduced - but due to the burden of implementing the quota. This about sums up the attitude I am talking about. An attitude which is emblazoned across the ultra clean T shirts pulled over their unburdened chests : not our problem.

This also comes across when they tell the OBCs : 'shouldn't you be fighting for an improvement in school education instead..?' Not our problem, you're told again. For the last forty years, the government had been promising the people and itself, that it'd start moving towards the goal that Kothari had set for it, next year. Every year. Consider this and this : in 2004-5, the centre and the state governments spent around 80,000 crores on education. Increasing this allocation to 6% of the GDP would have meant an additional expenditure of around 100,000 crores. More than three-fourths of this sum would have to come from the states. From states like Kerala and Tamil Nadu which work towards numbers more than overall quality, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh which believe in Vedic mathematics and Saraswati vandana more than basic arithmetic and sciences and Andhra Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh which don't seem to believe in education. And there are other states like Jharkhand, Orissa etc., which don't seem to have heard of education at all. The overall governmental spending on education hasn't moved anywhere near the goal of 6% of GDP in the last forty years. And going by the pace with which it has been moving in the last forty years, it would probably take another forty years to reach that goal and the elusive target of quality education for all sections of society.

So the 'pragmatic' people leading this fight for 'equality' who do not believe that an investment of 6000-8000 crores investment in the short run to accomodate an increase in seats is a 'sustainable' idea, given the record of the government in this regard, want the lower castes to believe in the 'sustainable' idea that an effort which would require several times more serious societal and political will and resources (more than a 100,000 crores and increments, every year ) would ensure a fair share for them in higher education? In effect, they're asking the lower castes to wait for another forty years (and hope and pray that it will be only forty years). Or until 2046-47 A.D., when India would be 'celebrating' a hundred years of independence.

But the central government has made it clear through several announcements and spokesmen that it does plan to make the investment required to increase the infrastructure in the centrally-run institutions and in the shortest possible time. The Oversight Committee it has set up would work out the details of expanding infrastructure, among other things, and submit a report in the next two months. But the striking students still object to reservations on the basis of caste in the prestigious institutions now being 'invaded'. Why? Is it an atavistic response to the sacrilegious idea of children of lesser gods daring to think of 'higher learning'? A throwback to the times when the prescription that molten lead should be poured into the ears of the shudras who even overheard a recitation of the Vedas by accident, was practised? Definitely a problem, they seem to think.

But the students are not entirely to blame, as it is now becoming clear. If you pull your eyes away and back from the cameras focused on the squatters on AIIMS grounds, you'll notice a wide phalanx of eggheads, as formidable as the Kuru patriarchs and heroes, providing all the logic, support and solace needed for this 'strike'. Experts from fields which the students would have considered 'pseudo-sciences' or at best 'lesser sciences' until yesterday. Anthropologists, economists, sociologists, jurists. Apart from businessmen, professors, lawyers. All with strong credentials and stronger surnames. And they all tell you : reservations are an 'easy' (chalu?), short term 'eyewash' of a solution while strengthening the schools is the 'real', long term solution to the 'problem'. Who can disagree with such wise men? Specially since they represent the 'intellectual cream' of our middle class? A middle class composed almost entirely of one section of our society - a middle class created, funded and supported almost entirely by a large government and a larger public sector through most of this country's post-independence history. A middle class which still 'owns', in a way, Yojana Bhawan, North Block, South Block and all other blocks to development. So why weren't adequate efforts made in 1955 when Kaka Kalelkar pointed to the warning signs, or in 1980 when Mandal submitted his report, by this middle class and its representatives who constituted, and still do, the overwhelming majority of the top, middle and lower rungs of this country's bureaucracy, the top and middle of the leadership of all 'national' political parties (including the naxalite groups), the parliament, the academia, the media, the organised industry.... to actually strengthen the schools in this country so that the lower castes wouldn't require reservations in higher education? There is a Hindi expression, which modified, would best describe this new age double-speak : ulta kotwal lock-up mein marnewale qaidi ko daante..! The only reasonable explanation for this hypocrisy is this : it was not their problem. Their kids didn't/don't go to those schools, so it wasn't their problem.

Every agitation, protest movement organised by the lower castes in this country since independence and several yugs before that carries an implicit appeal : we want education.

The Shudras are aware of both the options : the short term prescription and the long term plan. But they have also come to understand that the long term plan wouldn't work if the short term prescription is not enforced.


[Note: To those still reading this blog, I've decided not to delete any comments for now. Including spammers selling mouth-wash. So would some serial abusers reserve some space for others who would like to contribute their own share? And to plain old-fashioned commenters? ]





101 Comments:

At 9:10 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

Thanks mad hat! And welcome !

 
At 11:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obc voice,

It is good to see your thread full of debates which are more or less healthy. So as a anti-reservation supporter my arguments are as follows:


"To ensure that upper caste students wouldn't have to face the compounded ignominy of not just sharing the same classroooms and hostels as the shudras but also actually having to give up some of their places to the unclean."

Definitely a very biased view if you are trying to support your argument on logic. And if this is a truth according to you then please give some relevant examples or data in reference to the cities/locations the institutes in questions are situated.i.e if such a discrimination actually is existing.



"Witness how politicians on either end of the ideological spectrum share so very identical concerns : 'merit' should not be compromised, the 'poor' among the upper castes also need reservations, 'the creamy layer' should be skimmed off."


A very important question, please answer:

Is there a "creamy layer" according to you existing among the OBC/SC/ST or not? And if yes, then do you support reservation for them? And if not then how would you like to explain the 'backwardness' and 'suppression' of those economically affluent amongst your community?




"The Oversight Committee it has set up would work out the details of expanding infrastructure, among other things, and submit a report in the next two months. But the striking students still object to reservations on the basis of caste in the prestigious institutions now being 'invaded'. Why? Is it an atavistic response to the sacrilegious idea of children of lesser gods daring to think of 'higher learning'? A throwback to the times when the prescription that molten lead should be poured into the ears of the shudras who even overheard a recitation of the Vedas by accident, was practised? Definitely a problem, they seem to think."

This is a gross distortion of facts, if I may say so. It is not the threat of 'invasion' by shudras. The reason for this agitation is far more serious. It is the distrust over the political system and the way it has been manipulating everything and anything it can for its gains. Just like the OBC/SC/ST community does not trust the political system working for its cause, the general category does not trust these adhoc political committees to come up with miraculous solutions.

Talking about the standards of the institutes, merit and talent are an important factor if not everything. Agreed, there can be really brilliant scholars among the Backward communities who can out beat the 'upper caste' students in everyway. However, this alone does not solve the most glaring problem which is of funds and resources.
If this government is committed enough for the 'upliftment' of backwards then it would ensure that the above are not a problem for years to come while implementing the quota policy. However, the general category highly doubts that. So not only it will be facing a stiffer competition (until the seats are gradually increased) but also coping up with scant resources (after the seats are increased). And if agitating for this reason in a sign of selfishness, then definitely the upper caste are the least sorry.

 
At 9:22 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

'Definitely a very biased view if you are trying to support your argument on logic.'

Please place those lines in the context in which they were written. I am referring to the efforts being made by the politicians, bending over backwards almost, to ensure that no general category seats were lost. The result of these efforts is there for all to see- the govt., has done something unprecedented to accommodate general category students: it increased the seats. And backed it by taking a major step of expanding infrastructure, which it had postponing for a long time. Wouldn't you call that Rs.6000 crores worth of hard data?

I'm not finished.

 
At 10:35 PM, Blogger ASA said...

obc mate

you are doing very good work and i am with you in this fight against the oppression of the Depressed classes.
In Jammu and Kashmir where the depressed classes are about 85 percent of the population, the uppercaste hindu and muslim hegemony has ensured that the OBCs do not get even one percent benefit. Instead of implementing the Mandal report, they have distorted it for their own ends.
The end result is that kith and kin of upper caste people are taking the benfit of Mandal recommendations.
Brahmins and Mahajans and caste muslims have poached the jobs belonging to the depressed classes.
All this has been done in the name of Article 370, which gives a dubious special status to J&K.
In addition the people of Jammu region particularly belonging to the depressed classes have been given a raw deal by the Kashmiri rulers, who are bent on taking revenge.
God save the OBCs in J&K.

Long live revolution.

 
At 12:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

congratulations to all OBC GUYS. it is now sure that you would have ur quota in IIT and AIIMS from june 1997, so just chill out,Just relax , close ur books, go watch some movies, have fun!
long live reservations!!

 
At 2:14 AM, Blogger ASA said...

lol
Anonymous, ThANKS Yar. for being so kind and cool.
It would be great day when the OBCs pass out from the portals of these institutions and work towards the betterment of this society and this country.
After what has been done to India by the hegemony of the upper caste guys, i think if given a chance, we can do our bit for improving the lot of this country.

 
At 2:34 AM, Blogger ASA said...

HI Guys just read the leading article of the Indian Express or what is rightly the Brahmin Express or Bania Express, you will realize that the upper caste conspiracy to halt the UPA government's decision to introduce reservations in private sector is either has become successful or in the usual manner the Indian (Sic) Express has tried to mould the news in such a manner that it appears that government has bowed to the upper caste lobby.

The story says that the Prime Minister has slowed down the decision making process, although this decision is a part of the CMP of UPA government.
To be frank, it must be said that both Congress and BJP are filled with uppercaste people, and both these parties are not willing to dilute the caste hegemony.
What they want is to reap the political benefits by adopting a piecemeal approach towards social justice and equality.
It is therefore hightime that the backward classes and SC/ST people unite to fight for our due share in economy, polity and society of this country which has been denied to us for thousand of years.

 
At 7:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hey
nice blog uve got thre,
i am a supporter of reservations and ur blog has mindblowing matter to convince the brainless snobbish upperclass people who know nothing but ruling and suppressing the OBCs...
By the way OBCvoice may i KNOw your age?What is your zodiac sign?

 
At 8:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi, You have raised quality points. I will add mine.

1. All the 'anti-reservation are shouting for equality. But tell me why the nomenclature of "forward caste" and "backward caste" ? If everyone was born equal and remained equal in everything else then how come one became 'forward' and one 'backward' ? This proves that somewhere something happened, which gave the forward caste an inequal start, which became part of their legacy. So the real equality will be to negate the 'start', which these forward castes got. This is provided by reservation and this will bring equality. So all the 'anti- resrevation' supporters should drop the word 'equality' or support reservation.

2. They say that reservation will kill merit. In the same breath they say 'poors' of forward caste should be given reservation as well. So in this kind of reservation merit is not curbed !! what hypocrisy!!

3. Do they really think that admission in the IITs or IIMs or AIIMS is based on merit ? Do the exams test the raw innate merit or something which has been nurtured by having high standard of living and educated legacy? Merit in these exams is some quality which is only with the developed sections of society. Hence their demand of merit.

You are doing a good job here. As with the biased media and blogshpere you are not getting much visibility. But continue your fight,I am with you.

 
At 9:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

'convince the brainless snobbish upperclass people who know nothing but ruling and suppressing the OBCs...'

If you so convinced of upper class being so brainless and snobbish then why even attempt convincing them? Go ahead with your holier-than-thou agendas and let the upper caste do its moronic bit. And it will be a never ending cycle until you NUKE the entire general category from your idealistic system. something you won't hestitate from if ever given a chance!!

 
At 8:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It really tickles my funny bone to see you calling yourselves representatives of a 'repressed community' .....they say the middle class is self serving ...self centered ...well the news is that o is the rest of humanity ...and so r u . YOu have formed some sort of non coherent link between reservations and the revolutionary upliftment of the masses ....do you have any FACTS , NUMBERS to substantiate anything ...I guess you are the kind how pple are not utterly convinced of your 'logic' (whimsical fantasy?)

Have you even read the Mandal commission report ? Yet like much of the illiterate Taliban it has become your quoran...this is i guess your cause ..your reason for existence ...ad there is no use of debating nething you because i guess you are beyond rationality ...but i suggest you read Mandal ...specially what kind of research that commission did ..and what were their conclusions ( and how the reached) ...am glad some1 in the media is finall questioning the report :: what karan thapar says on r gandhis views:
:"ajiv Gandhi began by claiming he wasn't debunking Mandal but the case he made against the Commission was so powerful and convincing that that's precisely what he did. He also raised serious questions about the V P Singh government's motivation in implementing the report which apply, without any alteration, to the government headed by Dr. Manmohan Singh and functioning under the tutelage of his wife.

First, let me summarise the case Rajiv made against Mandal. To begin with, Mr. Gandhi pointed out that the three important sociologists involved with the Mandal Commission — Professors Roy Burman, Srinivas and Jogendra Singh — who were thanked in the report for the work they had allegedly done, declined the honour and, as Rajiv put it, “have clearly said that they were denied any real opportunity to participate in the findings.”

Then Rajiv pointed out that the report is based on the work of a research and planning team “which met for only three days” and a second panel that met for five. Rajiv's conclusion: “This means no specialist, no sociologist was involved with this report apart from these eight days.”

Now let’s turn to the data the report is based upon. Rajiv pointed out that the first set of data is from the cost indexing of 1891 and the census of 1931. As he asked: “We are talking about data which is a hundred years old or sixty years old. Is that valid today?”

To buttress this, Rajiv said that the Mandal Commission carried out two further exercises. First, it approached state governments for information. But, as B P Mandal himself admitted in the report: “It was rather disappointing to see that hardly any state was able to give the desired information.” Second, the Commission carried out a survey in 810 villages out of India's then total of 5 lakh. That's 0.00162 per cent! And how were these villages chosen? As Rajiv Gandhi put it: “They went on to arbitrarily select two villages and one urban block from each district.” Worse, and again let’s quote Rajiv: “The survey was conducted by junior government officials without any supervision or checking or validation by any high ranking or known sociologist.”

Consequently, so shoddy is the research and the data thus derived that the Mandal Commission's conclusion that 52 per cent of the population is OBC is, as Rajiv commented, seriously flawed. As he said: “Many castes that are listed in (this) list are forward castes and are scheduled castes ... I know for a fact that Brahmins are included, Reddys are included, Vokkaligas are included, Kammas are included, Lingayats are included, Gounders are included, Chettiyars are included. Are these backward castes? Do they need the help? This is how 52 per cent has been derived.”

The real blow that Rajiv struck was, ironically, when he quoted the Commission itself. This is the Commission's conclusion (para 11.27) about its own work: “In the end, it may be emphasised that the survey has no pretensions to being a piece of academic research.”

Finally, right at the end of his speech, Rajiv referred to an article in The Independent, a now defunct newspaper. Recalling a conversation some newspaper editors had had with the then Prime Minister, V P Singh, about the possibility of implementing the Mandal Commission report, The Independent wrote that V P Singh replied: “The report was purely a political strategy and that he was not so foolish.” Sixteen years later is another government, this time under the tutelage of Rajiv's wife, attempting the same political strategy?

If that question is pertinent, perhaps Dr. Manmohan Singh and Mrs. Sonia Gandhi should respond to the closing words of Rajiv's speech: “Let us not have one man’s obstinacy holding India hostage ... Let that man’s obstinacy not lead to caste war ... I appeal to the patriotism and patriotic feelings of every member in this House not to remain idle, not to remain quiet and save this nation from the obstinacy of one person.”

I anxiously and eagerly await Rajiv's widow's reply. Perhaps the PM might have something to say as well."

We know nothing of who and how many obcs there are and whether they really are 'under priviliged' ....all we have is a piece of shoddy research ( which itself claims not to be of 'academic value)

ur posts are replete with sarcasm , there is not an iota of reason behind nething you say ...

if nothing else ..pls read the mandal report no sensible human being can read it and not be surprised that sucha shoddy piece of work shall decide the fate of a nation.

 
At 2:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

to pro reservations:

1."If everyone was born equal and remained equal in everything else then how come one became 'forward' and one 'backward' ? This proves that somewhere something happened, which gave the forward caste an inequal start, which became part of their legacy. So the real equality will be to negate the 'start', which these forward castes got."

yea right.Have you not heard our shouts?We say that primary education should be first given to the OBCs to ensure that equal start.

2."They say that reservation will kill merit. In the same breath they say 'poors' of forward caste should be given reservation as well. So in this kind of reservation merit is not curbed !! what hypocrisy!!"

We say that 'reservation should never be there because it does curb merit.And if thse politicians are so hell bent on giving reservations then why are upper class poor being left out?
Read and be informed before using ur baseless arguments.

3."Do they really think that admission in the IITs or IIMs or AIIMS is based on merit ? Do the exams test the raw innate merit or something which has been nurtured by having high standard of living and educated legacy? Merit in these exams is some quality which is only with the developed sections of society. Hence their demand of merit."

by this either you mean
a) merit criteria should be scrapped off and admissions should be based on caste solely or
b)If high standard of living gives birth to merit then dont you think the stress should be on improving that quality of living for OBCs than on gifting the talentless aspirants with IIT seats?

plz specify what you intend to say.Other wise...SHUT UP!!!

 
At 2:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Commenter(anti "pro-reservation") just above me.

1. Any effort for equality from now will not work UNLESS the earlier "START" which forward caste got is NEGATED. I guess I am clear enough. Primary education will bring in equality after a decade or two and not now. The primary education talk is just to serve as RED HERRING. Just to divert from the real issue.

2.Your answer to point no 2 is clear enough to say that your 'anguish' is ONLY for OBC to be benefitted. And NOT for Reservation. Accept it !!!

3. Yeah, either change the present structure of the exams or else factor in the backwardness of other sections of society. This is being factored by RESERVATION.

All sort of approach, TOP DOWN and BOTTOM UP should be used for uplifting the OBCs. Don't try to fudge the issue by talking of improving the condition by primary education and such. They are of course to be done in addition to RESERVATION.


I would suggest to you that please maintain some civility in discussion. For any one approach there can be thousand alternatives. So I am not here to discuss those alternatives but the present approach.


-
Pro-reservation

 
At 6:28 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

anonymous,

i'm glad you made this comment. In a way your comment indicates an emerging pattern of thinking, very familiar to those who have studied the 1990 protests, among the upper castes. This falls into the category of 'a very sophisticated mechanism of dilution and derailment ' i had alluded to in my post. But i wouldn't qualify this as 'sophisticated'. The age of litigation has earnestly begun, I suppose, and your 'facts' constitute the core of the arguments that'd go before the Supreme Court now, I guess. This questioning of 'first principles' every fifteen years or so, whenever the mandal issue crops up, by some of the 'cream' of our political, intellectual, business/professional and others (who range from socialites to sportsmen, spiritual leaders etc.,)is so very unoriginal and simplistic that one sometimes wonders 'do these folks really deserve to be in the positions they are in?'I'd classify the late Rajiv Gandhi in the last category- of those whose leadership is based on factors other than the application of intellect and professional capabilities.
Do you want me to respond to you? Or to Karan Thapar? Or to Rajiv Gandhi? Or to your take on Karan Thapar's take on Rajiv Gandhi's take on whatever his sidekicks, probably Mani-the-incontinent-Iyer, fed him on the Mandal Commission? (so much for original research!)
Whatever,...
First, I suggest: go through the list of backward classes, listed statewise, in the NCBC website (http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/index.htm).

'Many castes that are listed in (this) list are forward castes and are scheduled castes ... I know for a fact that Brahmins are included, Reddys are included, Vokkaligas are included, Kammas are included, Lingayats are included, Gounders are included, Chettiyars are included. Are these backward castes? Do they need the help? This is how 52 per cent has been derived.'

Here are some lessons in our kind of 'logic':
Now understand the lists follow statewise data. If you say 'reddies' are included.. yes, you'll find them included in the Tamil Nadu and Karnataka lists, not in the Andhra Pradesh list. If you say Kammas are included, you'll find them in the TN and Karnataka Lists and again, not in the Andhra Pradesh list (politicians from those two castes occupied the CM's post in AP not in TN or Karnataka). Let me also point you to certain other castes like the Velamas, called Vellalars in Tamil Nadu. They are in the TN list and not in the Andhra Pradesh list. I'd also like to point you to the kapus here. THey're included in the TN list but not in the AP list. This doesn't mean all the kapus in AP fall under the obc category - the munnuru kapus from telangana are in the obc list and not the coastal andhra kapus. And divisions within all the castes I cited above - not all of them fall in the obc list or in the forward list. And in the TNBC and Karnataka lists you'll find that certain communities are classified backward only in certain districts. You'll find similar 'discrepancies' in the north - I refer to the jats and certain other castes. And the scheduled castes listed as backward castes? Dhobis (or rajakas in some states) are considered 'untouchable in some states and not in others The castes outlined above are listed backward in states in which they are backward. That's lesson number one) the castes listed are region-specific.

I've lived for a while in the south and have observed certain features I consider significant in understanding the evolution of these lists. I was told this by a telugu friend : the late Kamaraj Nadar, one of the lost tribesmen of truly honest leaders of the Congress, had once observed that one-third of all communities in Tamil Nadu are of Andhra origin. You can't jump to the conclusion, from this observation, that one third of the people in Tamil Nadu speak Telugu. What we need to deduce from it is the fact that there'd had been significant migrations, throughout history, between the three states I touched upon above. The telugu component of TN castes was easily identifiable during Kamaraj's time. Because the recent, considering the time in which that observation was made, migrations from telugu country had been in significantly large numbers. These had occurred in three-four large 'bursts': during the period of the vijayanagara rulers and after them, the nayaks, the maratha rulers, the british period when madras became the capital of a large dominion consisting of telugu, tamil and kannada regions. The reverse was also true - some castes like the vanniars,mudiraj/mutrasi/mudaliar, sengunther etc., claim affiliation with their tamil counterparts.. and in medieval period when the cholas/pallavas held sway as far north as rajahmundhry there were significant migrations north. In fact, a few divisions among the reddies trace their history to tamil country. A large number of balijas from telugu/kannada regions migrated in either direction and to what is now referred to as TN. The lingayats might be a strong force in Karnataka but in AP they're definitely backward. So understand: Narayanan Karthikeyan might be a Kamma but he'd most probably marry a tamil Kamma and not a telugu. Castes carrying the same name don't exhibit similar socio-economic attributes.
That's lesson number two: the castes are language-specific.

Now we come to the savarnas in the lists. The banias are included in the Bihar list. the chettiars in TN. Mandal should know about the banias from Bihar : they were included because they were found 'socially and educationally' backward following the eleven criteria he employed (Please check the NCBC website too). You'll find the Rajputs in the Karnataka list. You'll find them in the AP/Maharashtra lists too, but under different names. These rajputs in Karnataka were migrants from the north from (according to various speculative theories) mewar/bundelkhand/malwa/chattisgarh etc., Whatever the geography of their origin what we do know is that they were 'imported' from the north by the nawabs like (the nizams of Hyderabad), and other rulers. They were employed in the armies of these 'kingdoms' and also as some kind of 'policemen'/pehredars' in some villages. I have a few friends among these 'rajputs' and, in my view, they definitely fulfil the Mandal criteria. the State govt., says so too. The decline of the nawabs rapidly pushed them into social/economic backwardness. Dharam Singh, the Karnataka CM, is one such backward 'rajput'. They're more at home speaking Kannada/Telugu than Hindi. They're minorities almost totally integrated into the majority. That's lesson number three: the list of castes also takes into account backwardness among such upper caste minorities.

The first Commission on 'backwardness' was commissioned by Rajiv's grandfather in 1955 :the trait of shallow thinking and superficial understanding of India probably runs in the veins, because he had dismissed the kalelkar findings in a similar cavalier fashion as his grandson rubbished mandal. SO obc reservations did not happen at the Centre - backwardness among castes didn't exist in Central policy. But many States which were much attuned to ground realities, and much closer to the 'ground', as it were, took up on their own, policies to address caste-related backwardness. THe States which undertook those programmes, we now know, have moved ahead of those which didn't. We consider them 'progressive' states now. So, understand this : there was already a large body of data collected by the states by the time Mandal arrived on the scene in 1978. And other than the socio-economic survey you refer to, the secondary data available with the states is of significant use to the policy makers now. That's lesson number four: it's not Mandal, but Rajiv Gandhi who was mostly 'bundal'.

Look at the some of the other castes(and their professions as interpreted by someone who can identify these castes) in the lists that you allude to (and probably never checked) :
boya- occupied in mostly hunting/fishing and other such professions,
bestha- fishermen,
padmasali/satanu- weavers
rangrez- dyeing,
bhatrajulu- court singers, performers,
bogam- traditional sex workers,
poosala- bead makers/sellers,
gajula balija-bangle sellers,
arekatika/queresh- butchers,
bahurupi-folk theatre artists(?),
chippolu/mera-tailors,
dasari/jangama-begging,
dudekula-mattress cushion makers,
dommara-madari,
budabukkala-similar performers,
goundla-toddy tappers,
odde/oddera-stone breakers (?),
nayi brahmana -barbers (were these the brahmins you referred to ? or was it the vishwabrahmins-goldsmiths?),
kammara-ironsmiths,
kummara-potters,
uppara-stoneworkers again,
erukula-pig breeders(?),
What do you think they are - the 'oppressors'?
And now look back at the list of castes you cited (quoting K.Thapar who was quoting Rajiv Gandhi who was quoting).. Kammas, Reddies, Lingayats etc., and the 'rajputs'...how many are they? a few dozen ? No more. THe overwhelming majority of the castes listed among the 3500 odd OBCs are such minor occupational castes- traditionally considered shudras and atishudras. You don't think they constitute 52% of the population? That's a number that came up only once - but you don't have any numbers to dispute that either.A census if conducted along caste lines today would reveal that they're much more than 52%. Because one of the characteristics of 'backward people' is their neglect in planning their families.
That's lesson number five: the numbers will surprise you. And Karan Thapar and Rajiv Gandhi's bhoot.

And Lesson number six: do you think the exceptions like the reddis and kammas and lingayats disprove the rule? They don't.

And finally go through all the state-wise lists in the National Commission on Backward Classes website (I listed the link earlier in this comment). Get someone to tell you who they are, go identify them in the cities, towns and villages.. And I urge you take along Rajiv Gandhi's alongwith you. Karan Thapar? I guess he belongs where his friend Benzir Bhutto is now - in the trishanku reserved for those who haunt their native lands but never belong..(I guess Rajiv Gandhi too fits that description). The 'facts' you'd observe should provide you with a lifetime worth of 'reason' and 'logic'.

And lastly (definitely lastly), do you think the 'facts' and 'numbers' you presented weren't raised and discussed earlier? First by the upper caste babus in New Delhi, secondly in the political classes, the parliament, the media and in the courts? And dissected and torn apart etc.,? But what was the overwhelming logic of it that it keeps coming back? The messenger was discredited, his methods were ridiculed..But what is it about Mandal that keeps it going? Apart from the results of the socio-economic survey you (or rather rajiv gandhi) you don't seem to agree with, there's one other significant 'fact'that's always ignored by those ridiculing Mandal - that's the '4%' figure- the number representing the OBC representation in Central govt/public sector jobs in 1980. Take the available list of backward classes and check them against the number of non-OBC castes in the employee rolls (they should still be available)for central govt., and central public sector organisations in 1980- this is not a job for an 'original' researcher like K.Thapar but someone 'less prejudiced' like Arun Shourie and a team of researchers from any of those 'think tanks' now crying themselves hoarse on the 'death of merit'. and check and recheck and validate them. And take them to the Supreme Court.

And until then, stop whining about the figures- we have some figures. You, on the other hand have none.

As I said at the beginning of this comment, the 'original' points you now raise would also be raised by petitioners fighting for 'equality' in the Supreme Court. And again, as I said earlier the courts have gone through similar arguments earlier.. the definition of the creamy layer evolved there. So now if a petitioner take those arguments again to the courts..i'm sure any fair judge's funny bone won't be tickled. I suspect he'll do some grievous harm to the petitioner's coccyx.

 
At 7:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Please place those lines in the context in which they were written. I am referring to the efforts being made by the politicians, bending over backwards almost, to ensure that no general category seats were lost. The result of these efforts is there for all to see- the govt., has done something unprecedented to accommodate general category students: it increased the seats. And backed it by taking a major step of expanding infrastructure, which it had postponing for a long time. Wouldn't you call that Rs.6000 crores worth of hard data?"





Well, to start with, the above 'accomodation' is a face saving measure the government had to adopt AFTER it faced the heat from general category.Please note that it was not a part of the original proposal.And secondly, it has not been extended to ALL the intstitutions where the quota is going to be applied along. If otherwise, please enlighten by giving a valid source of information.




"I'm not finished."


and.....

 
At 8:15 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

1."Any effort for equality from now will not work UNLESS the earlier "START" which forward caste got is NEGATED. I guess I am clear enough. Primary education will bring in equality after a decade or two and not now. The primary education talk is just to serve as RED HERRING. Just to divert from the real issue."

Forward castes 'start' should be negated??BE sure,do you have a problem with the backwardness of OBCs or the forwardness of GCs??

Red herring?OH...i dint know that OBCs have the right to be given a seat in IIT/AIIMS without having to study even till 12th...great.
By the way,looking at the actual number of needy OBCs,who are below poverty line,wont take the benefits of reservations NOW.IT would take a decade or two anyway.Talk sense.

2."Your answer to point no 2 is clear enough to say that your 'anguish' is ONLY for OBC to be benefitted. And NOT for Reservation. Accept it !!!"

Now I am taking it as a good humoured joke,coz it wont make much sense otherwise.I really geguinely hope you're not against upper caste people or suffer from some kind of inferiority complex,do you?
I mean i really really fail to understand why,according to you,upper class poor people should be left out and lower class rich families should be included in the benefits of reservations.
By the way,i dont have to prove that Im not against OBCs,many of my frends belong to that catagory,and I respect them for their individuality,but any person who would go running to an institution of excellence as IIT with not merit but only OBC certificate,im sorry but i find it highly UNFAIR.

3."Yeah, either change the present structure of the exams or else factor in the backwardness of other sections of society. This is being factored by RESERVATION.

All sort of approach, TOP DOWN and BOTTOM UP should be used for uplifting the OBCs. Don't try to fudge the issue by talking of improving the condition by primary education and such. They are of course to be done in addition to RESERVATION."


Either change the structure of exam,huh? U mean u dont even find the entrance papers or the whole selection criteria appropriate?I believe its the frustration of not qualifying in the entrance that you are taking out here.Let me tell you,you should have worked harder.

"TOP DOWN and BOTTOM UP" means just the reverse of the present situation?...just pull down the upper castes,those who are at the top,those who have achieved a lot of success in life...and equality is achived..everyone in INdia will then become equally backward.right?

I hope you havent forgotten but the competition is not among us all Indians but now our competition is witht the whole world.Think about that too.

 
At 9:10 AM, Blogger ASA said...

hi guys

Indian xpress or Baniaexpress is continuing the tirade. the leading story again rants and raves against reservations. The paper quotes numerous international papers out of context to make its point.
What they want is to perpetuate the Brahmin bania raj.
But, that is impossible now.
Long live revolution

 
At 9:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Anti "pro reservation"

Now you are showing your character by getting personal in your comments.

Let me start that at first which you mention that I am writing in my anguish of not clearing the exam is not true. I have cleared those exams and passout from same institutions which you are now protesting against "reservation". So can we stop being personal and discuss the issues?

1. To negate the start means in simple and plain English to bring everyone at a level field. It means those who could not inherit the START from the legacy should be given reservation to make them equal. I hope this time I wrote in plain english for you to understand.

School education ALONE is not going to get equality.

2. Well you have yourself proved that you are against OBC. So now if that appears to be a joke then I don't have an idea of your sense of humour.

3. If you think that exams are true test of merit then why do students flock to Kota to get admitted to IITs. Is merit distributed in Kota ? Now tell me how many poor ppl can send their kids to Kota. And poor ppl are predominantly of lower caste. If you deny this fact then I won't agrue any further. For this will prove you can't be any far from reality.

Going further I really don't understand what is you guys problem. Your seats are not getting changed. So what is you proresting for ?

 
At 10:09 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

i'm sorry i've been tardy in responding buti've responded to too many of this kind of questions earlier. anyway :

Rs.6000 + crores worth of face-saving material? That must be around a dozen times the annual indian market for facial creams and stuff..
The increase has not been extended to all the institutions? don't worry, it will. See, you're truly a part of the powers-that-be..you know of policy even before it is formulated.
If you're still not convinced 6000 crores is not enough any logic, try applying it in this situation: the year is 1982 and Mandal's recommendations have been submitted..the government does nothing about a report which says castes constituting over 52% of the country population have a representation of 4% in central government employment. So what does it do? Does it invest the 1982 equivalent of 6000 crores to expand the operations of public sector undertakings, or simply expand government to employ a sizeable number of OBC employees (forget the 27% figure)? NO. Does it invest it in capability-enhancing institutions and programmes so that more OBCs become 'employable' in the public sector in the future? NO. Does it take special measures to improve/expand OBC education in higher education? Does it invest in expanding the existing infrastructure in elitist institutions to accommodate more OBC students at least in a phased manner...say, 5% in each phase? NO.

It undertakes none of the above tasks - and ten years go by.(Compare this leisureliness with the swiftness with which the government acted to ensure the upper caste students don't lose even a year in the present scenario. In 1990 Mandal comes to parliament and leaders of the two major national parties do their utmost to scuttle it- Rajiv Gandhi ridicules it in parliament, Advani goes on a hellraising yatra. And partners within the ruling coalition quit. The protesters get all kinds of support from the mainstream student organisations and paries and the issue is dragged to court. It comes out of courts almost intact - but is only implemented in part. And it takes another thirteen years for government to even broach the disgusting mandal thing, which has by now become a policy imperative. If reservations have been accepted for employment there is no reason why reservations in education be delayed. But the government after goverment delays it. But does it invest in the meantime the equivalent of 6000 crores in any of the ways I described above to 'accommodate' the OBCs? NO.

now back to your other original questions:

'Is there a "creamy layer" according to you existing among the OBC/SC/ST or not?'

The Supreme Court felt the 'creamy layer' criteria should be applied to reservations in employment in central govt and the central public sector. As far as I know, the question wasn't applied to education. But before I express my own views on your question, I hope you'll oblige me by answering one of my own queries : is there a creamy layer in the 'general category'?

'If this government is committed enough for the 'upliftment' of backwards then it would ensure that the above are not a problem for years to come while implementing the quota policy'

Let me correct your impression on something very fundamental to OBCs - we have no wish to be 'uplifted'. The way we see things now is this - we ask for our rights, if the government doesn't oblige, we fight for it in whatever fashion our limited resources allow us.. And when it comes to admissions in the Institutions we are discussing now..they are, crudely put, government run institutions - we are trying to access those resources, to which we have a right. So if you question our right, even when the government assures you that your numbers won't be affected, it means A)that you don't want us in those institutions and B)that you don't believe in the government, as you pointed out.
If it's implication B - why don't you say it's a fight for your own rights and not for some loosely defined goals like 'equality', 'justice'etc.,? People like me would have supported your right to demand that the number of seats in the general category be not decreased and the infrastructure be expanded in the shortest possible time. That your individual privileges be protected.

If it's implication A- You'd only be confirming my suspicions that you don't want us shudras in those institutions.

The third implication, that strikes me now, could have been this (let's call it C): YOu want the government to first expand the infrastructure and then implement the quota (if the government still remembers it). Which again means that you want to protect your own seats and not to fight for some obscure goals like 'equality',
'justice' etc., It also means that you're not thinking about the 'potential' seats the OBCs might lose in the interim period.. but are concerned that you shouldn't lose any seats in the same period. Fine. WE did not have any major representation in the past fifty years in those institutions so..another 2-3 years lost wouldn't mean any major sacrifice, that's my personal opinion. Again, I personally would have joined your fight.

PLease let me know which of the above implications is true.

 
At 10:11 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

mineguruji,
god bless your large heart. tussi great ho ji.

YOu've become my major source of information and news now. thank you.

 
At 10:15 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

shazia,
thanx for your kind words-it means a terrific lot.

'By the way OBCvoice may i KNOw your age?What is your zodiac sign? '

what can you deduce from my zodiac sign? I'm a leo, i think, but can't you deduce things like that from my writing? :)

 
At 10:17 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

anf/anti-reservations,
thanx for expressing your views here.

 
At 10:18 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

pro-reservations,

great to have you here. welcome!

 
At 12:41 AM, Blogger Madhat said...

@obc voice: First of all, I think your comment deserves a post of its own.

Secondly, your comment has spawned some questions in my mind. The reservation policy is aimed at bringing about social justice, right? But its aim is not the socialistic goal of "to each according to his/her needs". Which is why economic backwardness is a criterion for reservations. So, the castes and communities idenitified by the Mandal Commission are those that have traditionally suffered discrimination by the forward castes, right?

Now, when the Reddys are included in the OBC list of TN/Karnataka, it is done not on the critierion of this historical discrimination but because they are backward because of certain parameters identified by the Commission. Then the aim of the Mandal recommended reservations cease to be social justice and gets tilted towards the socialistic goal.

If we argue that reservations are not for the 'needy' but for those who are denied their right to equality, guranteed by the constitution, because of enduring social practices, then this idea of identifying castes/communities based on the 11 parameters does not come into picture. Then only those castes/comuntities should be included who are traditionally considered shudras and whose caste is occupation based. Of course, identifying these communities might require use of those parameters.

I think the argument for inclusion of Lingayats/Reddys/etc could be that they were migrants from their lands and like all immigrants, they were ostacrised against at one point of time. But does that happen even today for these communtities that migrated a looong time ago?

 
At 2:25 AM, Blogger ASA said...

yar teach me how to add links to blog.

I am planning to start a paper for the depressed classes. what are your suggestions.
What should be the format and should it be a weekly or fortnightly.

 
At 3:40 AM, Blogger ASA said...

In this column below Pamela Phillipose has given a sound critique of the Medico strike. The author debunks the manner in which the entire issue was dramatized by the striking students. Moreover, being published in Indian Express or Bania Express, it becomes our duty to appreciate the efforts of Ms Phillipose.
Although the newspaper has given some space to criticise the doctors but it has continued its vigorous and senseless rant against reservations.
Rahul Bajaj has got Rajya Sabha seat, please ask BJP to give one to Shekhar Gupta.

Pamela Philipose in Indian Express

There was an edge to the recent doctors’s strike that surprised many. It needed the Supreme Court to threaten contempt action before Delhi’s resident doctors decided to resume work. As for the students, they have made it clear that their mutiny continues. What accounts for this extraordinary spectacle of an otherwise de-politicised professional community taking to the streets, facing water canons, staging hunger rallies, defying the authority of the prime minister? That the protesters were backed by some powerful and well-heeled players is without doubt. But that still does not fully explain their dogged persistence and impassioned demeanour.

This strike, in fact, tells us a whole lot about the state of the medical profession in India today and the education it is based on. The profession has come to be measured by the same yardstick of success that a career in technology or management is measured by — its income-generating potential. So the frustration voiced in those tents rigged up in the AIIMS courtyard was genuine, make no mistake. When an IIM graduate can walk away with a salary of Rs 86 lakh a year after putting in, say, seven to eight years of intense study, these poor, bright, white-coated young things have first to get into the gruelling MBBS course, then complete it, then — if they are lucky to land a seat in an post-graduate course — swot for another two or three years for an MD. Even that may not be sufficient. The goodies may come, but they are indefinitely deferred to some point in the future. This realisation must be galling for those who believe that they are among the most “meritorious” young people in India, comparable to the best an IIT or IIM can churn out. The sheen of being in an “honourable” profession can only take one so far.

This is where we come across an irony: the medical profession, if it is to be useful to society, cannot but be judged by a standard that is unique to itself, because there is no other profession quite like it. IIT or IIM graduates can remain unconnected with social reality; live each in his/her discrete bubble and still be successful professionals. MBBS graduates cannot afford that luxury — if luxury it is — because the profession demands that they touch the human body in a bid to heal it, and the health of that human body is in turn determined by the society in which it lives. The disparities of caste are a part of India’s reality, whether these students would like to recognise it or not. Addressing them is also part of India’s reality. Medical students, therefore, at least those who counted themselves on the anti-quota side of the divide, need to take a more considered view of reservations.

Is the country’s medical education fostering this tunnel vision? That would indeed seem to be the case. First, take the rules of entry. A school graduate of 18 years, or so, is required to answer 400 multiple choice questions in order to make it into an MBBS course (interestingly, the entry point in medical schools in the West is far less rigid — kids do undergraduate studies in the arts there and still make it to medical school and, in any case, they are generally older when they take the decision to opt for a career in medicine). There is little “merit” involved in our system that a good coaching institute or a handsome sum of money cannot take care of. The fact that a significant percentage of kids who make it into medical college have parents who are themselves doctors is proof enough of this.

The 18-year-olds are then put through the paces of the MBBS course, comprising nine semesters over a period of four and a half years. The syllabus is singularly lacking in the larger themes that could instill in the student a broader view of the world. While the IITs make some effort to teach the humanities, medical schools don’t generally think this necessary. Even the nodding acquaintance with “community medicine” and “welfare planning” that the MBBS course makes mandatory, is cursory in the extreme. Besides, it is taught so indifferently that students routinely bunk these classes. The system clearly places no premium on issues of social welfare and it is not surprising that the students don’t either.

Everywhere in the world, there is a constant public effort to review and measure the standards of medical education. After Hurricane Rita signalled the failure of the US medical system to respond to a great humanitarian crisis, there was an extended period of brain-storming on the issue. One of the conclusions reached was that there was a shortage of at least 90,000 physicians, and that there was a lack not just of facilities in the areas that needed them most but of “diversity” in the ethnic composition of the medical community. Finally, it was also recognised that the quality of teaching in medical schools needed to be enhanced in order to produce socially responsible physicians.

 
At 5:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

pro-reservation-"If you think that exams are true test of merit then why do students flock to Kota to get admitted to IITs. Is merit distributed in Kota ? Now tell me how many poor ppl can send their kids to Kota. And poor ppl are predominantly of lower caste. If you deny this fact then I won't agrue any further"
accepted that most of poor people belong to "lower caste " (your term) , but not all. and not all people belonging to lower caste are poor, you must also agree to these. According to you if those who study in Kota can only get selected to IIT, which a poor cannot attend, then why not have reservations only for poor? why divide into sc st and obcs ??? wont that will be a more better way of levelling ground( and since most poors are from "lower caste" that will eventually benefit yhem only without need to specify caste which i think all of us are trying to eradicate.( i am personally against any reservations because i dont think that even poor need reservations because not all who go to KOTA are selected , infact percentage of those who do not get selected is much much more inspite of studying in Kota.

And its reservations only which reveals caste of a student, without caste based reservation no body , atleast in colleges would know to what caste one belongs.

 
At 5:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

@obc voice: What do you think should be the motto of reservation, socio-economic equality or avenge the upper-caste atrocities? Should the reservation be meant for under-priviledged or for those well-to-do's whose forefathers have been wronged? Is reservation the right way to remove casteism from India? Won't a ban on the word caste itself help? Won't encouraging inter-caste marriages help? Atleast I don't think that continuously reminding everyone of one's won caste as well as others will help much.

 
At 5:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

and please dont talk about teaching humanity to doctors. Let me tell you when it comes to dealing with patients, going on strike (recently in Maharashtra where more than 50 % doctors are OBC+SC+ST there had been a long strike where everybody participated irrespective of caste), minting money or serving the poor, all are same irrespective of caste.

 
At 6:02 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I didn't mean to say that ONLY those who go to Kota get selected in IITs. It was my attempt to show what sort of merit is judged in IIT and hence need for reservation.

Agree there might be few ppl from forward caste who are also poor. But still they have support structure. Backward caste are predominantly poor and have no support structure. Just see the way in which columnist put their views along with their caste.

One such highly casteist columnist is 'Prem Shankar Jha' . True to his caste he gives one example of one Brahmin who is poor. How he compares that with 90% backward caste who are poor. These columnist should look at their conscience before penning their thoughts.

Caste should definitely be abolished but only after equality is brought. Even today in cities and in close circles among the so called elite you can see how cheap views they have for backward caste ppl.

 
At 6:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

again if you are so sure that most poor belong lower caste then why not have reservations only on the basis of economic criteria, it will ultimately benefit lower caste only. wont that will help to eliminate caste discrimination, atleast there will be no discrimination amongst backwards.

 
At 6:18 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

and for all those doctors and staff at AIIMS standing for reservations and for "equal oppertunities for all", now since they have got good jobs, can finance their children any school and coaching , will they step aside from reservations so that really poor people from their caste can avail equal oppertunity and have "level ground" like they have attained??????????????

 
At 6:24 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Economic criteria is just one dimension of the backwardness. It is not everything. If only it was that singular.

 
At 6:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

and for Pamela who said"There is little “merit” involved in our system that a good coaching institute or a handsome sum of money cannot take care of. The fact that a significant percentage of kids who make it into medical college have parents who are themselves doctors is proof enough of this"
This stands true even for SC, ST and OBC. And reason why the first voice is raised by medical students is because almost everybody prepares for PG entrance when we are preparing for pre med entrance or IIT entrance,most of students are at their home, so no body knows what other student is doing. BUT when medical students study for PG entrance, almost everybody lives in the hostel, so U know exactly how much effort is one putting in. Frustration comes when one sees his fellow having all fun in life, because he knows he belongs to reserved catagory and will have seat even if he does not get a very good rank

 
At 6:38 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

pro reservation, i am sorry i forget other criterion , can u please enumerate for me, and which of them cause backwardness without causing poorty??

 
At 6:39 AM, Blogger Madhat said...

It should be -

Which is why economic backwardness is not a criterion for reservations.

I missed out the word 'not' there.
Hope this makes more sense... :)

 
At 7:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For start how about having educated legacy ??

 
At 7:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

agreed, but
1.those who are not poor can easily negate this by sending their children to good schools, getting good tutions.
2.not all upper catagory people are educated.
3.and in todays world it is rare to grow rich without being educated unless one is a corrupt politician
4.yes there are many businessmen who are not educated and earned money using their "traditional" occupation but go to point one

 
At 7:32 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

Everyone,

I haven't been on the net today until just a few minutes ago when i got reconnected. So it'll take a little time before I can respond to any of you. Will have to go through all your comments first.

 
At 8:12 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't understand this logic,

1. If thousand backward class are poor, so what ? there is one forward caste poor as well.

2. If thousand backward caste are uneducated, so what ? there is one forward caste who is uneducated.

What sort of inference does this provides ?

And as I have always said one can always present thousand alternatives for the sake of rhetorics. Okay then let me present one.

Why can't all those aggrieved can go to Harvard and Wharton and get admitted there ? However absurd this might be but what the heck, the idea is to present alternatives.

 
At 10:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

please friend dont get annoyed. i am just putting points in favour of reservations on economic background rather than caste basis so that we dont have to reveal our caste, which will help us to intermingle in better way.In central institutes where we are from different states, only reason i come to know about a persons caste only because he has taken admission through perticular quota. Otherwise who would have cared

 
At 3:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obc voice:

"Rs.6000 + crores worth of face-saving material? That must be around a dozen times the annual indian market for facial creams and stuff.."

Do you think it will be actually constructively implemented ? Mate, GCs are not gullible.


"Does it invest the 1982 equivalent of 6000 crores to expand the operations of public sector undertakings, or simply expand government to employ a sizeable number of OBC employees (forget the 27% figure)? NO. Does it invest it in capability-enhancing institutions and programmes so that more OBCs become 'employable' in the public sector in the future? NO. Does it take special measures to improve/expand OBC education in higher education? Does it invest in expanding the existing infrastructure in elitist institutions to accommodate more OBC students at least in a phased manner...say, 5% in each phase? NO.”

Over here you are pointing out some of the most fundamental flaws of the system run by the govenment.But having caste as the only criteria for initiating/expanding these projects is not going to hit the nail on the head. Even political parties of the BCs, by the BCs and for the BCs are not genuinely working towards achieving this. Had there been any constant follow-up and pressure tactics adopted by them in their true spirit and not motivated by vote bank, there wouldn’t had been a need for 'Manual II". Added to that, GCs are no less spared from the vile policies of the government. Power and Greed has little to do with greater good of the caste.



"I hope you'll oblige me by answering one of my own queries : is there a creamy layer in the 'general category'?"

According to me there is a creamy layer in every category. And it belonging to a GC does not make any better than belonging to a BC.

"even when the government assures you that your numbers won't be affected, it means A)that you don't want us in those institutions and B)that you don't believe in the government, as you pointed out. If it's implication B - why don't you say it's a fight for your own rights and not for some loosely defined goals like 'equality', 'justice'etc.,? People like me would have supported your right to demand that the number of seats in the general category be not decreased and the infrastructure be expanded in the shortest possible time. That your individual privileges be protected."

Firstly, it's futile to sell government assurances to anyone.
Secondly, my take is definitely B. This fight for 'equality' is not being spearheaded by philanthropists but by a section of society which is trying to find itself a niche in the economic jungle by struggle and competition. It has a certain set of ethics which include hard work as sort of a 'virtue'. And when it comes to competition this section is at a war with itself. Please note this section includes BCs as well.
And the decision of government to implement reservations without any fall back can never be seen in good light. Since both the sections are fighting for the same pie and one is getting a relatively easy hand over it, do not expect the other to accept it meekly remembering the sins of their forefathers (? what if their forefathers were actually philanthropists? and their fathers social workers?) Thus the demand for 'equality'.
This fight is not against BCs as much as against the politics of this land. If the government has failed to do its homework then overall discontent is no surprise. Therefore, it's pointless playing blame game within categories as there are situations on both the sides.

 
At 10:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

dear "pro reservations"

1."It means those who could not inherit the START from the legacy should be given reservation to make them equal"
Inherit the start?U mean for a person who couldnt afford to go to school deserves a seat in IIT because he couldn't get the equal 'start'?You believe such person should be given schooling along with reservations?
Just suppose you want to go to a movie.You usually hurry up and be on time so that you get the ticket and a good seat in the cinema hall.But if you know you have your seat 'reserved' you dont care about the timings and even may enter minutes after the movie has started,wats the hurry?
Similarly, the OBC students know that a seat is RESERVED for them in the educational institutions,who amongst them would care to put in that much of effort as the General catagory?They would study surely,but the hardwork will definitely be less and thus the merit never upto the mark.
My argument is that give the poor class(see im not using 'lower caste' here intentionally because i have ceased to stress on casteism.At least for me,all are equal.)
give them the facility to go to a good school,give them financial help to get books etc,give them access to a good coaching for the preparation of various entrances,this way bring them on the equal platform as the general catagory(upper castes, for you)and them let them compete in an environment free of caste based discriminations.
School education ALONE is not going to get equality.
I agree with you,but add this on to it:
School education ALONE is not going to get equality,and neither reservations.

2.I dont know how stating that OBCs are my friends,or saying that poor Upper class should not be left out proves that IM against OBCs.Sorry but i can understand your 'simple english' but not the logic behind it.

3."If you think that exams are true test of merit then why do students flock to Kota to get admitted to IITs. Is merit distributed in Kota ?"
In a way yes.The environment provided there is apt for the preparation for IIT-JEE and it is comparitively cheap (though not really viable) or many students to flock there.
For your information,most of the people who qualify and who belong to Kota are actually OBCs because obviously most students are from Rajasthan,and its a state with a large no. of OBCs.

By the way,your english has grammatical errors.

 
At 10:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do feel a need for affirmative action and probably reservations are easiest of them..

But I fail to understand 'Why should it be based on caste lines?'. Can anyone of the 'pro-caste-based-reservation-ists' help me understand?

I am actually trying to find out ways in which affirmative-actions can be implemented (feasibility is a major issue here.. am not targetting utopian). So would like to hear about the ways in which we can implement quotas based on economic criterion.

 
At 1:36 AM, Blogger ASA said...

The need for caste based reservations is that they are not represented in the society, economy and polity of India adequately.
Take for example media, a survey conducted by Yogendra yadav and his team, which has been published in Hindu, reveals that out of 300 top journalists in Delhi around 260 are upper castes and half of them are brahmins.
Now, how do you describe this overpowering domination of the Brahmins and Banias in Indian journalism.
It is because of this reason that the public discourse is controlled and guided by the upper caste Hindus.
Media is not the exception but the rule in this caste dominated country.
If their was no reservations in this country, then no doubt you could not have found a single SC/ST or backward caste employee in the centre or the states. Except in the fourth class jobs.
Except reservations there is no other way that the depressed can get their share of rewards in this country.

 
At 2:20 AM, Blogger ASA said...

we are planning to set up a newspaper of dalits in Jammu and Kashmir.
Is their any possibility that we can get financial and intellectual help from the OBC and SC and ST broters of India.

 
At 5:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Except reservations there is no other way that the depressed can get their share of rewards in this country."

This means you are saying
a) No matter even if all other measures are taken to bring them to a common platform still it doesn't matter.Because you are anyway not fighting for a common ground but for a easy entry.

b) All those who are toiling day and night for the same education are morons as their ancestors did a lousy job by not eliminating their entire caste.

c)India should eventually get rid of drama called competition and capitalisim(reservation in private sector) and become a Communist country.

Good thinking!!!

 
At 6:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

@mineguruji: but why is it that most of the sc/st students i met came from a more well-to-do (economically) family than their general category counter-parts? Infact, stats from iitkgp show that only around 15% of the SC/ST students (in 1999 or 2000 don't remember, but will confirm that) had family income less that 1 lakh/annum while for general category students it was close to 50%. Don't you think that some privileged people who belong to these castes are cornering most of the seats. I have been trying to get a copy of mandal commission report and I think that I'll get one by this weekend through a contact. Then I guess I would be in a better position to comment upon all this.

I would request you all to go through this article http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1486250.cms

 
At 6:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amit Srivastava

It's pointless giving examples over here from a media which is GC controlled.It will be debunked any which way.
So, if u want to give 'facts' to BCs then find a source of media that is only BC controlled. And accept it without questioning its validity as it will never manipulate anything like evil GCs!! They are above such vices!!

 
At 6:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

@anonymous: :-o you seem to suggest bc's are some super-humans.I request you to be calm and think logically instead of being emotional. No one in this world is perfect and that is the only truth.
honestly speaking do you really think that all those who take admission through the quota system are more under-privileged than their general category counterparts. Ain't they stopping some other bc candidate who have more potential but was less privileged in terms of facilities? How many seats do really go to the slum-dwellers?

 
At 7:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"you seem to suggest bc's are some super-humans."

That is what I actually intented to ridicule :)

 
At 8:17 AM, Blogger ASA said...

hi srivastav

The reason that you have met sc/st students in elite institutions from well off families is because it only them, who have been able to develop intellectual faculties to match the most fortunate upper caste brothers.
Unless and until jobs and money stay in a family for two or three generations only then they will be able to sit alongide you.
another five generations thee guys will compete with you and those from slums will be able to it with you.
It is only because of rservations that you see some guys with affluent backgrounds from sc and ts and OBCs.

 
At 8:18 AM, Blogger ASA said...

my key board is malfunctioning. sorry for typing mistakes.

 
At 8:53 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

amit srivastava,

'Atleast I don't think that continuously reminding everyone of one's won caste as well as others will help much.'

Your surname reminds me of your caste - was that deliberate :)? I don't think so. I am not making this up - just a few days ago, I was talking to a Kayasth girl who was in love with an Iyer boy. The boy's father, you might think this is filmi but it's true, threatened to commit suicide if the couple got married.
Caste works in very subtle ways - you might feel its presence very strongly only when you try to explore your choices before marriage. YOu'll realize your options are very limited- that's how caste essentially operates. It limits choices, marriage is one of the more visible areas where it does that, and as you go down the caste ladder you can see that the limitations are so progressively severe that you might correctly identify it (caste imposed limitations) as oppression.

Your comment (with particular reference to the first and second comments) comes closest to identifying the very core of the problem - the caste system. I thank you for making this perceptive comment.

'What do you think should be the motto of reservation, socio-economic equality or avenge the upper-caste atrocities?'

If we agree the core of the problem is caste..then we can find common ground in identifying techniques/methods to deal with it. You point out two goals for reservations. In my view, The second motto you mention has never been the goal of reservations - nothing can make amends for the past. As for the second motto, reservations were only one of several policy steps identified
as necessary for achieving a certain degree of parity or to artificially loosen a little the strangle-hold of limitations i referred to earlier. One should understand that our government and the constitution are inadequately equipped to totally extirpate caste (which was Ambedkar's goal). They can only take remedial measures to clean up the mess created/left by caste.

 
At 9:02 AM, Blogger Madhat said...

@amit:

Infact, stats from iitkgp show that only around 15% of the SC/ST students (in 1999 or 2000 don't remember, but will confirm that) had family income less that 1 lakh/annum while for general category students it was close to 50%.

Maybe, the SC/ST students are more honest when it comes to showing their parent's income and claiming the MCM scholarship.

 
At 9:23 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

amit,

'One should understand that our government and the constitution are inadequately equipped to totally extirpate caste ..'

I should have added that no government or constitution in the world can be expected to adequately deal with problems such as caste. Because they're not equipped - what can be done about a system that enjoys more legitimacy than any written constitution...? And operates at levels and ways which no lawmaker can identify and explain with the limited tools and language at his disposal?

 
At 11:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

@madhat:
"Maybe, the SC/ST students are more honest when it comes to showing their parent's income and claiming the MCM scholarship."

So, even such individual qualities are biased in a caste system. Hmmm, interesting.



@obc voice:

"What can be done about a system that enjoys more legitimacy than any written constitution...?"


Start slitting throats of each other! A very simple solution in the name getting equal and eliminating the caste system. Upper caste made life hell for you now do the vice-versa. because unfortunately, its about human species, there is all probability of a civil war. Which we are unanimously ready for(?)

next what? why we have different skin colors...??

 
At 12:23 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

anonymous,

'next what? why we have different skin colors...??'

are you trying to imply that caste is as irrelevant an issue as skin-color? that was original.

 
At 12:30 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

mad hat:
i've been thinking about what you'd commented here and written on your blog (your latest post).
The intention was to think aloud,I guess, and to make me think.

'First of all, I think your comment deserves a post of its own.'
Was that a compliment? If yes, thank you.

 
At 12:46 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,
'Over here you are pointing out some of the most fundamental flaws of the system run by the govenment.But having caste as the only criteria for initiating/expanding these projects is not going to hit the nail on the head.'

Are you trying to hit the nail over my head? I tried to illustrate very clearly the government works faster and more efficiently for the upper castes than it does for us. In fact, it hardly works for the OBCs and the dalits except for throwing them some occasional sops at them.

I've pointed out facts that illustrate my point that seats and jobs in government have necessarily been distributed alon caste lines until 1993 (whatever the mode of selection).. and you think caste is irrelevant.

'According to me there is a creamy layer in every category. And it belonging to a GC does not make any better than belonging to a BC.'

THe whole of the upper castes in my view constitute the 'creamy layer'. ANd the Supreme Court recognized the 'creamy layer' only for jobs and not for education..Nobody's sure about the definition now but if it has to be applied to the OBCs ..then I think it's only right that it should be applied to the upper castes too.. (keeping in view the limited number of seats/opportunities and that some of them have been enjoying these opportunities for more than two-three generations).

'Secondly, my take is definitely B.'

So the spiel on ideals etc., becomes irrelevant now..

 
At 2:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obc voice:

"Are you trying to hit the nail over my head?

Not really, so try keeping it decent.

" I tried to illustrate very clearly the government works faster and more efficiently for the upper castes than it does for us. In fact, it hardly works for the OBCs and the dalits except for throwing them some occasional sops at them.
I've pointed out facts that illustrate my point that seats and jobs in government have necessarily been distributed alon caste lines until 1993 (whatever the mode of selection).. and you think caste is irrelevant."

Caste can never be irrelevant as long as Hinduism exists amongst the Indians. But what is the core problem over here? Govenment is indifferent or it's prejudice? And pressing the caste button alone is going to help?

"THe whole of the upper castes in my view constitute the 'creamy layer'.

Please give a rational explanation for that.And also how come there is none in BC.


"ANd the Supreme Court recognized the 'creamy layer' only for jobs and not for education..Nobody's sure about the definition now but if it has to be applied to the OBCs ..then I think it's only right that it should be applied to the upper castes too.. (keeping in view the limited number of seats/opportunities and that some of them have been enjoying these opportunities for more than two-three generations)."

Are you suggesting that the GCs should be "banned" from entering educational institutes because they had a convinient access to education for past generations?


"So the spiel on ideals etc., becomes irrelevant now.."


Nobody is thinking about uthopia over here.Are you..?

 
At 2:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"are you trying to imply that caste is as irrelevant an issue as skin-color? that was original."


skin-color irt apartheid is not 'irrelevant'. Got it?

 
At 10:01 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

'Please give a rational explanation for that.And also how come there is none in BC.'

Read my post ('Truly a lallu'): it links to an aricle that says the upper castes constitute less than 10% of India's poor. And considering that they have been securing a majority of opportunities offered by the government(and Mandal was only one of many pointing that out)..you need more rational explanation for that ? As for the OBCs, please find a 'rational explanation', and
not offer keen your observations on how your OBC friends/neighbours/classmates drive cars etc.,, on how there is a creamy layer among them, and why it should be applied.

'Nobody is thinking about uthopia over here.Are you..?'

'what is the core problem over here? Govenment is indifferent or it's prejudice?'

I'll repeat again what i had said earlier: the government works faster and more efficiently when it comes to the upper castes, and doesn't work at all when it comes to the lower castes:that indicates prejudice more than indifference.

And finally,lOoking at the evidence of the past, and seeing it's such a totally prejudiced government and ruling elite, we definitely are..fighting for a utopia.

 
At 10:07 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

anonymous,

you start with:

'Start slitting throats of each other! A very simple solution in the name getting equal and eliminating the caste system. Upper caste made life hell for you now do the vice-versa. because unfortunately, its about human species, there is all probability of a civil war. Which we are unanimously ready for(?)'

and then say:
'skin-color irt apartheid is not 'irrelevant'. Got it?'

I still don't see what has skin color (or apartheid) got to do with the current debate?

 
At 10:43 PM, Blogger Madhat said...

@anon:
So, even such individual qualities are biased in a caste system. Hmmm, interesting.

I was just pointing out that the same statistics can be used to come to very different and logical conclusions. What really happened with the ToI article and with Amit is that they formed an opinion and then found a stat that supported their views. How you can make sociological judgements based on one statistic taken and quoted out of context from some study is beyond me.

@obcvoice:
The intention was to think aloud,I guess, and to make me think.

Yes, absolutely! Because it is our ability to think that differentiates us, doesn't it? :)

'First of all, I think your comment deserves a post of its own.'
Was that a compliment? If yes, thank you.


Well, it was part compliment and part suggestion. The thing is that people do not really pay attention to comments. Most people would read the post and ignore the comments altogether or post a comment without reading the rest of the comments before. And the point you make in that particular comment is extremely good. It is something that I think people should read because it educates them regarding the mendacity of the notion that 'most OBCs are affluent landowners'. So, think about it.

mail me at dastheleper [at] gmail.

Apurva

 
At 11:41 PM, Blogger Madhat said...

it should be 'us from the others'

 
At 11:59 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

'and
not offer keen your observations on how your OBC friends/neighbours/classmates drive cars etc.,,'

that should read: your keen observations...

 
At 12:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obc-voice: "THe whole of the upper castes in my view constitute the 'creamy layer'."
this might be true to a large extent but then they aren't demanding any kind of reservations/quota. Shouldn't the few bc's who belong to the 'creamy layer' also shun the reservation/quota thing?

 
At 12:08 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

@madhat:
'Maybe, the SC/ST students are more honest when it comes to showing their parent's income and claiming the MCM scholarship.'

I fully subscribe to your views. But, my personal feeling is that the numbers are really skwed (may be not as much as the iitkgp data suggests) since almost all the sc/st students had their parents in good govt positions. And as far as the honesty factor is concerned, it is very closely related to necessity.

 
At 1:25 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

amit srivastava,

'this might be true to a large extent but then they aren't demanding any kind of reservations/quota.'

If we look at the relative access of castes to resources until now, it'd be very clear that there has been a very strong bias towards the upper castes. Enough to suggest the existence of an invisible, but longstanding, quota.

The argument for excluding the 'creamy layer' says that those who have enjoyed the 'fruits' once do no deserve a quota. In a way, this exclusion would rule them out of competition altogether.. Given the fact that the seats/opportunities are so very limited, I don't see no reason why the same rule should not be applied to the 'creamy layer' among the upper castes.

 
At 4:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"those who have enjoyed the 'fruits' once do no deserve a quota. In a way, this exclusion would rule them out of competition altogether"
Why should they stop other more needy bc's from enjoying the 'fruits'. Why should a bc ias/ifs children be served these in platter? Why shouldn't they compete on their own?

"I don't see no reason why the same rule should not be applied to the 'creamy layer' among the upper castes."
Which rule are you talking about here?

 
At 5:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The argument for excluding the 'creamy layer' says that those who have enjoyed the 'fruits' once do no deserve a quota. In a way, this exclusion would rule them out of competition altogether.. Given the fact that the seats/opportunities are so very limited, I don't see no reason why the same rule should not be applied to the 'creamy layer' among the upper castes."
agreed that resources were biased towards upper caste, but now creamy layer of BC has also similar access to resources(in a way they are similar to upper caste in terms of availability of education,convent schools, tutions and coaching,their parents are educated) then how come they will be out of competition if put out of quota???????? now they have level ground, why cant they compete in general cat????????????
mr obc voice do u want to say that u dont have that capability(talent i mean to say, whatever it is)or is it that u dont want to work hard??????

 
At 7:27 AM, Blogger Madhat said...

@amit:
But, my personal feeling is that the numbers are really skwed (may be not as much as the iitkgp data suggests) since almost all the sc/st students had their parents in good govt positions

Dont you think that explains the statistic that you quoted. Being in a government, salaried job makes it impossible to hide your income.

When you apply the logic of dishonesty (with the claim that the creamy layer would take undue advantage of the reservation) on SC/ST students, why cant I apply the same for the General Category students (with the claim that those who take MCM hide their parent's/guardian's income)?

People are as susceptable to dishonesty, selfish behaviour, hatred, etc on either side. There are saints and devils irrespective of caste. Which is why giving example of individuals and making a generalisation about a community does not work.

And as far as the honesty factor is concerned, it is very closely related to necessity.

I dont understand this comment of yours. Are you saying that honest people are honest because of a necessity or are you saying necessity is the root of dishonesty?

 
At 7:58 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

amit srivastava,

'Which rule are you talking about here?'


of barring them from applying for these seats/opportunities.

reservations-why-till-when?

'.. but now creamy layer of BC has also similar access to resources(in a way they are similar to upper caste in terms of availability of education,convent schools, tutions and coaching,their parents are educated) then how come they will be out of competition if put out of quota???????? '

Yes, they should, shouldn't they? If they still can't compete it means that they definitely lack the kind of resources you assume they already have.

 
At 9:14 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

@obc-voice
'of barring them from applying for these seats/opportunities.'

But who is asking creamy-layer bc's to be barred away from applying. It's just that they should compete alongwith the gc candidates.

'If they still can't compete it means that they definitely lack the kind of resources you assume they already have.'

Yes, definitely but then before suggesting the solution to be reservation why don't we try to find the resource which they lack. I guess competition is one such very important resource which they are lacking. Most of the general category guys who make it to iit's aren't really outstanding before they start preparing for jee. it's the tough competition which motivates them and helps in brining-out their talent and uplifts their confidence.

 
At 10:25 PM, Blogger obc voice said...

amit srivastava,

'But who is asking creamy-layer bc's to be barred away from applying.'

That's what you're essentially asking - Why do you wish to exclude the 'creamy layer' from reservations ? Because you think they will take away all seats/opportunities in the reserved category? Do you assume the competition in the reserved category will remain permanently frozen and thus will enable only a few among the OBCs to get the seats? And that these applicants will not even have to try 'hard' enough to get those seats?

The concept of 'creamy layer' is based on two objectives:
1)that those who are 'economically' sound should be barred from reservations,
2)those applicants, whose families have availed of reservations once should be barred from the benefit again because reservations should go to those who are 'economically' less fortunate.

The underlying logic behind the stipulations is the recognition of the truth that seats/jobs offered are limited.

let me quote from a news report here :'the Supreme Court had in 1992 (in the Indira Sawhney vs Government of India case) directed it( the government) to exclude 'socially advanced persons/sections, defined as creamy layer, from other backward classes'

The Key Phrase here is 'socially sound'.

My primary objection to the 'creamy layer' is that its votaries base their judgment on certain prejudices like:

#The lower castes are inherently lazy, dependent on and greedy for govt 'largesse'
#They inherently (genetically)lack a sense of 'merit' and 'competition'.

The 'economic' arguments are part of an elaborate construct to dilute the truth that 'backwardness' is essentially determined by caste in India,..and the prejudices I outlined above, among others, constitute the 'rationale' behind rejecting reservations altogether.

Even if I agree to an extent that 'economically sound' OBCs (read who's the creamy layer in the NCBC website:http://ncbc.nic.in/html/creamylayer.htm) should be excluded from reservations... I don't see how one can support the claim of 'the creamiest of creamy layer' among the upper caste applicants ('economically sound' and 'socially advanced')to enjoy access to the limited opprtunities in seats/jobs even when many of them are ultra-rich and have enjoyed these opportunities for two-three generations..

But I'm quite sure the 'creamy layer' will be excluded.. if the govt doesn't do it, the left, who think all 'reason' is economic in nature, and the parivar which hates the lower castes anyway, will 'persuade' the govt to do it.

Or the SC will step in and force the govt to do it. Who knows, it might even dismiss this whole 'reservations-in-higher-education' idea altogether, on a technicality.

 
At 11:48 PM, Blogger ASA said...

thanks obc i got your mail. I will try these things. thaNKS

 
At 12:02 AM, Blogger ASA said...

Guys Indian express is continuing the tirade against OBCs and sc/st people. Yesterday, Pratap Bhanu Mehta in his column in the Bania Express using the most colourful language continued his tirade against the reservations. Now, i feel that Mehta is behaving like General Dywer of the Jallianwalla bagh fame or infamy. Whatever, the merits of his case may be, but the virulent manner in which this guys is writing against the OBCs, he has already lost his case with us.
Mehta has lambasted the government for the reservation policy on the premise that it divides the country.
But, someone must question this gentleman as to when this country was united.
Pre-independence upper caste rulers and their Brahmin and Bania cohorts ruled India for ages, they lost to Muslims and the english as India was divided into 562 states.
India was always divided into caste, regional and geographical
sub-systems.
How, can Mehta claim that quota will further divide the country when it is already divided.
The only thing it is going to do is to marginally shake the socio-economic system dominated by the sharma-gupta mafia.

 
At 1:21 AM, Blogger ASA said...

13 reasons why the medico inspired equality is failing

License to Kill: Doctors have blatantly violated their fundamental
principles of medical service: the Hippocratic code. They have
repeatedly called for strikes putting innocent patients in danger.
The strike has led to seven confirmed deaths in the first phase
itself. Media support has ensured that no more deaths are reported
although on 25th they had a total pan-India strike – anyone can
imagine how many seeking treatment would have died.

Gimmicks: Cheap antics like asking people to come to AIIMS because a
medico had died due to the hunger strike and that the media was not
reporting it are a sure sign of desperation. Apart from being a flat
lie.

Obfuscation: To offset criticism of their dereliction of duty, they
have been clever to concurrently start a hunger strike – by rotation,
ensuring none of their mates ever faces the dangers they are making
patients face. The moment one doctor on hunger strike faints, they
rush them to the ICU. While the ICU is unavailable for the people who
genuinely need ICU attention.

Hunger Strike: A hunger strike, with coolers, continuous supply of
water, an unending line of friends, comrades to cheer you up, where
you can read `You Can Win' by Shiv Khera and where you can enjoy
unadulterated media attention is difficult to buy. Ask Medha Patkar.

Police brutality: It is one thing to be silently in meditative pose
and be attacked and quite another for 500 people to insist on seeing
Arjun Singh all together in a Section 144 limited area. Similarly, if
we accept the Maharashtra police attack as brutal, be honest and tell
us you didn't want just that.

Additional seats, no additional logic: Even though the number of
seats have been increased to dent the campaign, there is insistence
on continuing the strike for no logical reason now. Even the PM had
to say: there is no issue now.

Caste campaign: To justify the continuation, what started off as a
clamour for safeguarding precious seats has now become a childish
filmy campaign for social justice – for the upper castes! Now
apparently the Brahamin Samaj is also holding rallies!

Want your cake and eat it too: Doctors will not give up their jobs;
won't do their job and won't let anyone else do it. This can never
succeed.

Delhi delight: In spite of total support in the metros, Doctors do
not choose to go into the heartland and convince the backwards to
join them. They are hanging around in Delhi trying to convince the
convinced. What's stopping them from campaigning where it matters?
The inconvenience of running this campaign in Gonda, obviously. And
no media to watch!

Political backers: The IMA (Indian Medical Association) is known to
have a politburo of graying Doctors who harbour ambitions for public
life. What could be better than a little muscle flexing to show
political party leaders that you have weight.

Cannon fodder: The Docs don't need a job; they are safe. It's the
poor medical students that the IMA is using as cannon fodder to keep
this movement going. Hey! did you see anybody from the IMA and the
DMA in the firing line of the police lathis? Or the hunger strike? No
chance.

Doctors or Event managers: The effort of trying to keep this movement
going is telling on the kids to the extent they have become
consummate Event managers thinking of one dramatic sequence after
another. Navjot Sidhu, Shiv Khera even a Ram Lila with Ravan et all.
This does not go down well with the public after a time.

Shifting stands: What started out as a clamour to save the 36 seats
in say AIIMS, changed to anti-caste campaigning to save India and has
today changed once again: the latest email from the group for the
27th rally says in bold capitals in the third line, " We don't say no
to reservations, but…". Well then, what's fight about?

 
At 7:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obc voice:

"As for the OBCs, please find a 'rational explanation', and
not offer keen your observations on how your OBC friends/neighbours/classmates drive cars etc.,, on how there is a creamy layer among them, and why it should be applied."

Well, to the above I have a few questions of my own.
How is upper caste suppose to recognize that reservation is actually helping the Bcs? And what defines that line? What confuses is that the parameters used for counting the resources of Gc gets void when it comes to that of Bcs.There needs to be defination somewhere other than emotional outcry. What is the real agends if not economic strengthening of BCs?

"I'll repeat again what i had said earlier: the government works faster and more efficiently when it comes to the upper castes, and doesn't work at all when it comes to the lower castes:that indicates prejudice more than indifference."

I can agree on that but how do you explain mass-exploitation and corruption in the BC lead/ backed parties ??

 
At 7:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Everyone(Upper caste+lower caste) you might find this useful:
-------------------------------------

Improve quality of education, panel tells Indian HRD Minister
A recent report of Parliament Standing Committee that - the higher education has grown in quantity but lacked in quality - may be an eye-opener for Human Resource Development Minister Arjun Singh.

The report number 172 of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on University and Higher Education has cautioned the HRD Ministry that unless the quality of education is improved, only increasing the number of higher educational centre will be of no use in face of emerging global scenario.

Driving its point home, the report said with students' access to higher education limited to a disappointing 7 per cent, the HRD needs to take urgent steps to improve the quality to create room for relevance of higher education vis-à-vis changing situation.

"It will have to grow both in terms of quality as well as in quantity, mainly with a view to converting its vast population as asset, rather than a liability, as has been done by China,"0 pointed out the report placed before the Rajya Sabha during the just-concluded Session.

In sharp contrast to Arjun Singh's quota line, the report also lays thrust on increasing competitiveness in the higher education.

"If India were to achieve the developed status in this milieu of global competition, the committee feels that there is no option but to reorient its higher education system to be vibrant, competitive, meaningful and relevant," the report said.

Even as quota debate has placed the focus on lack of infrastructure, the report has pointed to the growing pressure on higher education.

"The pressure on higher education is going to further increase due to large number of additional students expected to join the higher education institutions in coming years, particularly due to upward pull generated by popular interventions like Sarva Siksha Abhiyan and mid-day meal scheme," the report said

It also points out that the existing higher education system calls for measures to end the growing rural and urban divide in access to studies.

Reminding the basics of the 1986 National Policy on Education, the committee quotes from policy papers to caution the HRD ministry to make higher education accessible for "every Indian of requisite merit, regardless of his origin."

It also quoted UNESCO recommendation urging the nations to see that no one is excluded "from higher education or its study fields...on grounds of race, gender, language, religion, or age or because of any economic or social distinctions or physical disabilities."

The report also points out that increasing bureaucratisation and "intrusion of political process in the institutions of higher education," are some of the problem issues, which need to be addressed immediately by the HRD ministry.

The committee recommends that keeping in view the unimpressive access (to higher eduction) ratio of 7 per cent, the HRD needs to set a stiff target of 20 per cent access ratio. At the same time, the panel feels given the present inertia of HRD, even 10 per cent target is unlikely to be achieved within the Tenth Plan.

 
At 7:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Everyone(Upper caste+lower caste) you might find this useful:
-------------------------------------

Improve quality of education, panel tells Indian HRD Minister
A recent report of Parliament Standing Committee that - the higher education has grown in quantity but lacked in quality - may be an eye-opener for Human Resource Development Minister Arjun Singh.

The report number 172 of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on University and Higher Education has cautioned the HRD Ministry that unless the quality of education is improved, only increasing the number of higher educational centre will be of no use in face of emerging global scenario.

Driving its point home, the report said with students' access to higher education limited to a disappointing 7 per cent, the HRD needs to take urgent steps to improve the quality to create room for relevance of higher education vis-à-vis changing situation.

"It will have to grow both in terms of quality as well as in quantity, mainly with a view to converting its vast population as asset, rather than a liability, as has been done by China,"0 pointed out the report placed before the Rajya Sabha during the just-concluded Session.

In sharp contrast to Arjun Singh's quota line, the report also lays thrust on increasing competitiveness in the higher education.

"If India were to achieve the developed status in this milieu of global competition, the committee feels that there is no option but to reorient its higher education system to be vibrant, competitive, meaningful and relevant," the report said.

Even as quota debate has placed the focus on lack of infrastructure, the report has pointed to the growing pressure on higher education.

"The pressure on higher education is going to further increase due to large number of additional students expected to join the higher education institutions in coming years, particularly due to upward pull generated by popular interventions like Sarva Siksha Abhiyan and mid-day meal scheme," the report said

It also points out that the existing higher education system calls for measures to end the growing rural and urban divide in access to studies.

Reminding the basics of the 1986 National Policy on Education, the committee quotes from policy papers to caution the HRD ministry to make higher education accessible for "every Indian of requisite merit, regardless of his origin."

It also quoted UNESCO recommendation urging the nations to see that no one is excluded "from higher education or its study fields...on grounds of race, gender, language, religion, or age or because of any economic or social distinctions or physical disabilities."

The report also points out that increasing bureaucratisation and "intrusion of political process in the institutions of higher education," are some of the problem issues, which need to be addressed immediately by the HRD ministry.

The committee recommends that keeping in view the unimpressive access (to higher eduction) ratio of 7 per cent, the HRD needs to set a stiff target of 20 per cent access ratio. At the same time, the panel feels given the present inertia of HRD, even 10 per cent target is unlikely to be achieved within the Tenth Plan.

 
At 8:52 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

'How is upper caste suppose to recognize that reservation is actually helping the Bcs?'

There is no need for the upper castes to recognize or approve/disapprove what's actually helping or not helping BCs..It's not the upper castes who are giving them these reservations. It's for all the people, including the upper castes, to ensure that there is an overall societal 'balance' - reservations are only a small measure to ensure thie. THe larger measure is expanding opportunities for everyone in right from schooling, primary health to higher education etc., Because of the very uniqueness of the 'caste' problem..society at large also needs to take serious measures to confront and eliminate caste..

'I can agree on that but how do you explain mass-exploitation and corruption in the BC lead/ backed parties ??'

there are no BC paries and Gc parties- there are only vested interests and 'ideologies' designed to whitewash them.

 
At 10:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obc voice:

"There is no need for the upper castes to recognize or approve/disapprove what's actually helping or not helping BCs..It's not the upper castes who are giving them these reservations."

yes, but that is the section being targetted all along that needs to be convinced..that needs to be 'enlightened'.and then you say...


"It's for all the people, including the upper castes, to ensure that there is an overall societal 'balance' - reservations are only a small me

 
At 10:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obc voice:

"There is no need for the upper castes to recognize or approve/disapprove what's actually helping or not helping BCs..It's not the upper castes who are giving them these reservations."

yes, but that is the section being targetted all along that needs to be convinced..that needs to be 'enlightened'.and then you say...


"It's for all the people, including the upper castes, to ensure that there is an overall societal 'balance' - reservations are only a small measure to ensure thie."

My question is still unanswered. What is balance over here? What are we aiming at when we try to bring a balance in the present scenario? fiscal dynamics?

"..society at large also needs to take serious measures to confront and eliminate caste.."

I support you on that but wonder about its feasibility....just like utopia. And if it is to be achieved by battle or..by mutual understanding.

"there are no BC paries and Gc parties- there are only vested interests and 'ideologies' designed to whitewash them."

Then that means you also understand that more than the prejudice of the upper caste its the individual interest and greed that directs the policies of the government upto a significant extent.

And also a q from my previous comment(after reading the discussion that followed):

Are you suggesting that the GCs should be "banned" from entering educational institutes because they had a convinient access to education for past generations?

 
At 10:46 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obc voice:

"There is no need for the upper castes to recognize or approve/disapprove what's actually helping or not helping BCs..It's not the upper castes who are giving them these reservations."

yes, but that is the section being targetted all along that needs to be convinced..that needs to be 'enlightened'.and then you say...


"It's for all the people, including the upper castes, to ensure that there is an overall societal 'balance' - reservations are only a small measure to ensure thie."

My question is still unanswered. What is balance over here? What are we aiming at when we try to bring a balance in the present scenario? fiscal dynamics?

"..society at large also needs to take serious measures to confront and eliminate caste.."

I support you on that but wonder about its feasibility....just like utopia. And if it is to be achieved by battle or..by mutual understanding.

"there are no BC paries and Gc parties- there are only vested interests and 'ideologies' designed to whitewash them."

Then that means you also understand that more than the prejudice of the upper caste its the individual interest and greed that directs the policies of the government upto a significant extent.

And also a q from my previous comment(after reading the discussion that followed):

Are you suggesting that the GCs should be "banned" from entering educational institutes because they had a convinient access to education for past generations?

 
At 11:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear friend,

Your points make me feel ashamed at being born a Brahmin - something that i had no control over - talking about all the upper caste exploiting the backwards etc etc .. I never did discriminate against anyone .. and neither did my friends whose castes i did not know before a few weeks ago. I hear the same from both the pro and the anti reservationists - the same us vs them. The centuries old prejudice and the emotional baggage. Why do people generalize based on anecdotal evidence ?? Do all "upper caste" people discriminate?? Are they all elitist??

Why cant we keep an open mind just for a bit and think about the issue. Not every anti-reservationist has ulterior motive to oppress the backwards !! No one is even listening .. just busy blaming the other side.

Some of us ask - Is this the best way to help the under priviledged? This question in itself should not be seen through the lens of the caste. Why are'nt we exploring other proposals of affirmative action like the ones suggested by Dr. Yogendra Yadav and Satish Deshpande?? They are highly targeted towards the people who need it most and also encourage everyone to compete and reward the hard work. JNU is actually using such a scheme and has one of the most diverse student body in the country. Blanket caste based quota sounds like a "blunt" policy where the "hit rate" may not be very high. A more personalized scheme would ensure the integrity of the social fabric as well.

Why is'nt the govt instead of increasing seats in higher education in an ad-hoc manner, bringing education reform to remove the license raj? It can then let the private investment to take care of the needs in higher education and concentrate on primary and secondary education and spend the 8000 crore where it would be most useful in the long term.

Easy loans can be arranged and scholarships arranged to pay for these colleges.

Why are'nt we all trying to solve this problem? In an era where technology is getting sophisticated and better drugs are increasingly "targeting" the bad cells so as to have minimal side effects on the healthy ones, why is our policy making so "blunt" as to have serious side effects to the society??

No one amongst is questioning that !!

 
At 6:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

obcvoice:

wondering if you not in a mood or simply trying to steer clear from the debate....

 
At 7:43 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

I thought I had responded to your question earlier. I'll make it more clear for you:

No. I want you to realize that the OBCs had been 'barred', for whatever reasons, for the last fifty from these institutions..

Try and think for a minute, if possible, what that means for the OBCs.

 
At 8:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

....My question is still unanswered. What is balance over here? What are we aiming at when we try to bring a balance in the present scenario? fiscal dynamics?

 
At 1:18 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

As i said earlier, i've tried to respond to all your questions - the answers depend on how you interpret them.

But still, if you are curious about 'balance', tell me first what you mean by 'fiscal balance'?

 
At 7:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the answers depend on how you interpret them.

But still, if you are curious about 'balance', tell me first what you mean by 'fiscal balance'?"


you seem really irked.I did not bring in the word "balance". It was "introduced" by you. makes me wonder what made me think at first that you talk sense....

bye

 
At 8:50 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

i am not irked- only curious to know how you view balance.

 
At 9:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sweetie its 'fiscal dynamics' and not 'fiscal balance'.And before I answer that, you can always oblige me your answers if you have one.
And another thing, counter questioning is an old trick. If you have any straight forward answers go ahead.else there are other wonderful blogs where I can happily waste me time.

Bye again...

 
At 9:40 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

As i said, I'd like to know what you mean by 'fiscal dynamics' - this is not a counter-question, I'd really like to know.

 
At 9:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'd really like to know."

Ah...you really don't have an answer. You are not even clear what you want to know(fiscal balance or dynamics?). But you want to know..why? because you can have something to rebuke and then base your answer on its criticism . You are not a good debater, I am convinced.

And yes..this is a final good bye.

 
At 10:27 AM, Blogger obc voice said...

swn,

no, i'm not a good debater. i'm not capable of asking you trick questions.. but i don't think you'd be convinced by even this admission..

godd night.

(or is it good morning for you?)

 
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