Cui bono ?
'do you have any data on the efficiency of the reservation system? the socio-economic backgrounds of those benefitting from it, for example?'
That was a question posed by an anonymous commenter here. It made me think of another question and as I felt the blog where the original question appeared wasn't the right place to ask it...I'm posting it here:
'Do you have any data on the efficiency of the 'scheme' called the 'Government of India'? The socio-economic backgrounds of those benefitting from it, for example?'
Unlike the first question, my question is for everyone - including anti-reservationists.
posted by obc voice @ 12:10 PM
56 Comments:
Hey obvoice, Thanks for the information about what consitutes the
creamy layer. read it with great interest especially section 6. Where it says that anyone with an income of less that 1 lk a year
is covered and all others excluded.
These days with the cost of living, commuting, rent or home loans,occasional medical care etc i think that anyone who earns less than
that 8000 a month can not afford a 30000 rs preparation course or IIt and IIM.
If a kid of such a guy gets a decent enough score he must get the benefit of reservations.No person in his right mind will oppose that i hope
...Well one question. How many such OBC kids do you see in the future taking benefit of this reservation?
I am an Indian on the other side that you hate a lot( the upper caste--i dont use the word, cause i like little or nothing about it)
You vacillate between accepting that creamy layer OBC's must not get the benefit of reservations and then coming back to say in you last blog
why must they not get it if the upper class used these prime opportunities for so long???
Well OBC Voice , you are an intelligent guy,you have the numbers, you have a power to analyse,
you can see for your self that only people in the creamy layer would really have been able to take advantage of this reservation
That was what the upper caste is against, If you remember when the proposal came out it was vague as to how the government was gonna implement it
...Pardon the upper caste to be concerned and suspicious and worried about their future.
All this could have been a lot simpler had Arjun singh come on a nationa address and explain his plan..but no..he did not and he
deserved the wrath he got.
Also I have not seen all the comments , but who other that yourself as called you Shudra?? Man, Your a clever guy, you are much better
than many people from the upper class , you have information and ability to comprehend it, Then why do you want to revel in your
backwardness?? Why??? You are backward in no sense, and so are thousands other second generation OBC's .You know that ,and yet
why this affinity to being called backward??
You are very contradictory in your behaviour. You feel it is perfectly fine to blast upper caste people and call them selfish and
all other names. your hatred is so apparent, while a sizeable number of upper class people have tried to reason with you.
But if some upper caste guy writes something nasty your mates pounch on him and say "look what that upper caste bastard said"
..scum, brainless, selfish, self-centered"
Can understanding be one sided?
you have awesome writing skills and are motivated, but you seem to have a good game plan too..you play the backwardness card and use language like
"give the OBC his answers" Why do you resort to such tactics man??
About abolishing the caste system. Get real man. It is natural to have a sense of brotherhood and liking to people of your kind.
Have you seen Missippi Masala. Roshan seth is driven out of Uganda by native blacks. A black friend tells him "Africa is for Africans, black
africans"
later in the movie roshan seth says" as you grow older you want to be with people of your kind"
Right or wrong, groupism is here to stay. We should all have been together to ask the govt answers on its ideas for implementation.
But you seem to think everyone is against you.
The upper caste said " the ones who need the help are not getting it..the creamy layer must be excluded"
This means that the creamy layer OBC's will be compete in the GC for the already scarce GC seats..The Upper caste is so stupid right?
they dont even understand their own good.
It is not the hatred for OBC's that cause one to oppose reservations. Its a need of fair play at the cost of their own seats. But I know
you wont accept it.
More and more bloggers are visiting your site tryint to argue with you and leaving after knocking on your close doors.
The govt fooled everyone, including you. All those seats will go vacant , and if you ask for anything the govt will say ," shut up, we gave you
27% now what do you want?"
Put down the tinted glasses man, really and see through this plan.
Sorry For the typos guys . I meant
Who other than yourself has called you a Shudra .
Good question OBC,
I am glad that you have asked a pertinent question to the anti-reservation guys.
As far as i have the information, Anonymous is right into saying that the cost of living is very high, in view of that the government has increased the creamy limit criteria to Rs three lakhs.
The most important reason for reservations is that there ought to be historical correction in the Indian society, economy and polity.
Like the sensex, i think this is high time that India undergoes into a correction mode.
Why should 15 percent people, due to their historical predominance of thousand of years, should hold ninety percent or even more jobs in India.
India has matured as a democracy now, and it is pertinent that the majority will demand its share of the power and pelf.
In Jammu and Kashmir, the upper caste Hindus and Muslims have subverted the Mandal commission and enjoyiing the benefit of reservations.
They are not complaining against the reservations,majority of the doctors in Jammu and Srinagar belong to this quota.
Why are these people not demanding the abolition of these quotas. On the other hand, the people, for whom the Mandal commission was meant have been left in the lurch by the J&K government.
The Government of India is also rewarding the Kashmiris for being anti-India and taking up the gun, but the people of Jammu, in general and depressed classes in particular have been subjugated in this state.
Perhaps, the governments will wake only when the depressed people of this state take up the gun to fight for their cause.
Another reason for reservations:
SC/ST scientists call for quota
Deepa Balakrishnan
CNN-IBN
SC/ ST people are like street dogs in our department"
—Vasudevan Amudavel, ISRO scientist
New Delhi: With medical students calling off their agitation, it seems the quota stir has taken a backseat.
However, there is controversy brewing in other quarters. The debate is no longer restricted to quota for Other Backward Classes (OBCs) in insitutes of higher learning.
Next, reservations for senior scientists in space and defence research organisations are likely to come up.
The Chairman of the National Scheduled Caste Commission, Suraj Bhan, feels that premier scientific research centres like Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) should be opened up for reservations for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes.
"There is no reservation for scientists. We have now demanded that there should be total quota for all categories, without any exception," Bhan says.
Bhan claims his proposal will also prevent the harassment of SC/ST employees in premier organisations like ISRO that fall directly under the ambit of Prime Minister's Office.
Documents available with CNN-IBN Special Investigation Team suggest that more than 13 SC/ST candidates in ISRO have not been promoted despite getting good assessments.
This has invited the ire of senior SC/ST scientists of the space agency.
"I find discrimination everywhere. Be it recruitment policies or in promotion practices," ISRO scientist Vasudevan Amudavel says.
Vasudevan alleges that various forms of discrimination prevail at ISRO. "In department of space, there are no training facilities for us. We are not sent to launch programmes, we are not sent abroad, not given any opportunities. SC/ST people are like street dogs in our department," he says.
In an affidavit available with CNN-IBN, a senior scientist of ISRO admits not wanting to give promotion to an SC candidate.
The reservation agitation may have come to an end on the streets, but the fight for an equal 'space' at research organisations has just begun.
(With inputs from Neeti Tandon)
@obc-voice: i m waiting for ur response to the first comment in the post :)
why is the forwardness of OBCs dependent on the backwarding of the so called upper castes?
Why is providing priviledges to BCs preceded by shrinking the opportunities of general classes?
Reservation is short term and rudimentary method of achieiving equality in the fast evolving social society of India.
One thing should be kept in mind casteism exists in the minds of the lower caste people...who repeatedly call themselves shudras in order to differentiate themselves...if you go among the youth of the upper classes,you would know that the books and laptops have replaced the caste lines in their minds.
OBC Voice,
Is Mine Guruji Right in saying that the creamy layer is actually at 3lkhs and not at 1 lkh as shown n the link sent by you?If he is, request you to check your source of information before mis-guiding people like me
Less than 3lkhs a year , 25000 and month !!! someone making 20000 a month is NON-CREAMY!!!!
Wow!!! how loud should I shout that this is UNFAIR!!!
Your a lucky group man.My dad never made that kind of money even till he retired.
//if you go among the youth of the upper classes,you would know that the books and laptops have replaced the caste lines in their minds//
Nothing could be more far from reality. Seems the commenter has no idea of ground reality.
I lived in a city, when I was in India, in a decent neighbourhood. I was the only OBC there and everyday I had to hear some comments or other related to my caste.
So please don't say that discriminaton and all are stopped.
to all lower caste on this site:
It seems you guys are fighting a self-proclaimed 'jehad' where you start with 'data power' and when you run out of that,you suddenly change your startegy and start ranting from history textbooks.
It's only so convincing!!
"I was the only OBC there and everyday I had to hear some comments or other related to my caste."
Wise-guy, were you not or are you not aware of the laws that forbid such verbal discrimination against lower caste?? did to make a complaint? no.you did'nt fight for yourself. what were you waiting for? reservation?..to settle score.You are nothing but cry-babies
Thanks for the suggestion. But as you may not be aware of that the law is only for SC/ST and not for OBC. So nothing could be done.
The only thing which can change the attitude of those Upper caste (as you all mention yourself) is when they face the reality that they are no more a privileged lot. They can't just usurp others opportunities. Those days are gone. They will have to slog it out just like others.
And I never had the option of reservation as we were in creamy layer (above 1 lac ANNUAL income)
To Cracker-
Excellent observation. But I had mentioned that fact only cause someone mentioned that "Upper Caste" people no longer think about caste but they are concerned about laptop and such....
I don't need any favours from anyone to counter you Upper Caste, but I speak for those thousands who are not as fortunate as me.
Hey Pro-reservation,
An opportunity is simply and opportunity.It is not tagged as mine or yours.Thats what I wish.
SO forget about usurping "others" opportunities.
Abt the creamy layer, we have to yet find what the real no is with 2 conflicting opinions.
We are privliged? We are fighting a lost battle here.The bill is approved and we have all to lose. And we are priviliged? If the quota is really at 3 lk I am gonna see my kids of my colleague who earns a good 20k a mnth get admissions easily, and my kids have to slog it out?And I am priviliged?
What I want is that if you make 20k a mnth and I make 20 k a mnth then both our kids slog their asses for 1 seat and the better one be it your kid or mine gets the seat. Thats the "equality" that we talk off.
If you did not use the reservations ,inspite of being in OBC due to the creamy layer. You are my hero.You have the right to say " Man , I am as good as you . So shut up."
Thats what equality is about.
everyone,
thanks for expressing your views here- i'm sorry, i'll be able to respond only tomorrow.
well little devil is trying to quote history out of context to make a point in favour of his upper caste bretheren.
although the strike of medicos has ended but it gives us insights mentioned below:
Caste still divides India like nothing else. How else can you explain who so
many disparate groups got together to suddenly discover the concept of merit
and how letting in OBC students in would lower standards? On the other side,
caste also unites: it is amazing how all the so-called forward castes (this
is a better word than the misplaced upper caste; I mean, how can some say
they are above others!) got together to fight the OBCs. Not sure if anyone
noticed, but around the same time, one newspaper (or was it a website)
carried an ad for a matchmaking seminar for Brahmins, regardless of
subcaste. Clearly, the times are a changing. Brahmins are ignoring subcastes to marry within castes. But then, the more things change, the more they
remain the same too. Which means Brahmins are only marrying fellow Brahmins!
While the protesting medical students accuse Arjun Singh of being casteist,
they showed they are just as casteist (at least Arjun is on the side of the
dispossessed). Or else why would the students insist on carrying on with the
strike after the PM assured them that the number of general seats would not
be reduced and also promised many more colleges? At this point the students
began demanding an end to ALL reservations. But is that right? Can such
decisions be made on the streets and in the heat of a dispute? Worse, it
gave the impression that the forward caste students were not just against
quotas, but against the very rise of the backwards.
And in case students want us to believe that the reason they are protesting
against reservations per se is because they believe in merit, that has been
effectively answered by Udit Raj and his friends. Because if you really
believe in merit, then what about the private colleges that admit students
with far lower marks and far more money to spend? What about NRI students
who put in dollars where their marks should be? Is it because most
protesting students probably have a relative or a friend who has availed of
the private colleges after paying a handsome capitation fee (or horribly
high fees year after year). After all, private colleges have actually
benefited the paying middle class, most of who are from the forward castes.
There is another loophole in this merit-will-be-affected claim. Every Indian
is clearly aware that south India is far better off than north India on
almost all parameters of human development. Yet, south India has far more
reservations than north and has had them for years altogether. So clearly
reservations does not affect merit but actually helps a region prosper. In
fact, one can argue that if north India had put in better policies to help
its dispossessed (including reservations) earlier, it would not be the
blighted region that it currently is. And Bihar would not have had the
negative connotations it currently does!
pro reservation
Nothing could be more far from reality. Seems the commenter has no idea of ground reality.
seems you dont have the idea of the reality of laws??You could have gone and complained rt?
by the way you believe it or not...the hype about being lower caste has been created by lower class people themselves in order to get undue attention and sympathy.
Casteism does not exist in the minds of present upper class youth.
If you cant control youself from hitting a few protesters,just go and hear the students speak at an anti reservation rally/conference.You would know who is far from reality.YOU or me.
and most upper class people make money less than 20 000 pm...arent they underpriviledged??
one upper class family has five members, then all of them are employed and in this manner they earning around a lakh a month.
An OBC or SC /ST family has at the most a single or two people earning and this is the reason, they earn far less.
whatever the arguments, one thing is clear, from now on , Indian backwards know for certain where they stand in the minds of upper castes.
"An OBC or SC /ST family has at the most a single or two people earning and this is the reason, they earn far less."
So its really not about "why-there-is caste-system" but "why-we-should-make-less-money"
"whatever the arguments, one thing is clear, from now on , Indian backwards know for certain where they stand in the minds of upper castes."
If they wish to "market" themselves as backwards then there has to be "backward" about them.
Majority of Indians want quota
CNN-IBN
Posted Saturday , June 10, 2006 at 21:17
Updated Sunday , June 11, 2006 at 14:45 Email Print
New Delhi: The anti-quota protests dominated news headlines for weeks, but were they the representative of the real mood of the nation? A CNN-IBN and The Indian Express survey conducted by A C Nielsen on the issue has come up with some startling facts. nielsen
The findings of the survey show that majority of Indians support reservations and feel that quotas in higher education will lead to equal opportunities.
According to the survey, 57 per cent Indians favour the Government's decision on 27 per cent reservation for OBCs in higher education. Only 37 per cent feel otherwise.
Majority of the respondents feel that reservations in higher education are a key to social justice. As many as 63 per cent of the respondents said that reservations in higher education will lead to equal opportunity as against 34 per cent who felt that it will lead to loss of quality.
The survey was done among 776 people in five metros in both rural and urban areas.
The sample for the survey was unique. It had 40 per cent OBCs, 25 per cent SC and ST; 10 per cent Muslims and 25 per cent from general category, a representation of the Indian population.
But there are many surprises as well. While supporting the reservations, the respondents were dismissive of the present system of quota. As many as 57 per cent of the respondents want a changed and improved reservation system for the SC/STs, while 26 per cent want no change.
But, 15 per cent of the respondents want reservations to be scrapped. But the real surprise—53 per cent OBCs want improved reservation policy while for SC/ST the number stands at 61 per cent
Just now saw the interview of Karan Thapar with our Finance Minister. Now all the anti-reservationist will swear by it. In my opinion Karan Thapar was not interviewing FM but speaking as a emissary of anti reservationist.
He didnt have even the decency to let his questions be answered before interrrupting again and again. I really feel pity for Karan Thapar at what he has done to him in this reservation fiasco.
Karan was all the time asking what is the popualation of OBC ? Well in my view there can be thousands of questions. Does one know how many OBCs were on the Pune Mumbai road on 16th June 1997? if you don't know then no need for reservation.
how pathetic ?
The poor scoundrel vagabond says to a rich man:
"I have discovered there is enough money in the world for all of us, if it was equally divided; this must be done, and we shall all be happy together."
"But," was the response, "if everybody was like you, it would be spent in two months, and what would you do then?"
"Oh! divide again; keep dividing, of course!"
"Most people hold their desires without any context whatever, as ends hanging in a foggy vacuum, the fog hiding any concept of means. They rouse themselves mentally only long enough to utter an “I wish,” and stop there, and wait, as if the rest were up to some unknown power.
What they evade is the esponsibility of judging the social world. They
take the world as the given. “A world I never made” is the deepest essence of their attitude—and they seek only to adjust themselves uncritically to the incomprehensible requirements of those unknowable others who did make the world, whoever those might be.
But humility and presumptuousness are two sides of the same
psychological medal. In the willingness to throw oneself blindly on the mercy of others there is the implicit privilege of making blind demands on one’s masters.
There is the man who wishes to be rich, but never thinks of discovering what means, actions and conditions are required to achieve wealth. Who is he to judge? He never made the world—and
“nobody gave him a break.”
There is the man who wants a job, but never thinks of discovering what
qualifications the job requires or what constitutes doing one’s work well. Who is he to judge? He never made the world. Somebody owes him a living. How? Somehow.
That is the psychology from which all “social reforms” or “welfare states” or “noble experiments” or the destruction of the world have come.
In dropping the responsibility for one’s own interests and life, one drops the responsibility of ever having to consider the interests and lives of others—of those others who are, somehow, to provide the satisfaction of one’s desires.Whoever allows a “somehow” into his view of the means by which his desires are to be achieved, is guilty of that “metaphysical humility” which, psychologically, is the premise of a parasite."--AR
anonymous (first),
Thanks for expressing your views - and those of the indian media.
little devil,
what is it you wanted to say?..anyway, I see you don't have any data on the either the efficiency of the 'government of India' or on the backgrounds of those benefitting from it.
thanx for visiting.
anti 'pro-reservationists',
you say : 'why is the forwardness of OBCs dependent on the backwarding of the so called upper castes?'
and then go on to say: 'One thing should be kept in mind casteism exists in the minds of the lower caste people..'
Two questions : 1) Do you then think that the 'forwarding' of the upper caste people until now has been dependent on the 'backwarding' of the lower castes?
2)If caste exists only in the minds of the lower castes ...why are you still taliking about upper and lower castes?
anonymous,
'Is Mine Guruji Right in saying that the creamy layer is actually at 3lkhs and not at 1 lkh as shown n the link sent by you?If he is, request you to check your source of information before mis-guiding people like me..'
Those are guidelines.. and not standards. Different states have have differing income limits.. Go back to the context where I posted the link - I wasn't using it to support any of my major points.
This issue requires deeper and more lateral research than the media would make you believe - the data is there, but 'original researchers' like Karan Thapar, who exist for and by the soundbytes
aren't capable of conducting it..and you don't seem interested in a little hard work yourself.
pro-reservations,
'And I never had the option of reservation as we were in creamy layer (above 1 lac ANNUAL income)'
those opposing are so very convinced about the 'laziness', 'incompetence' and venality of the OBCs that they are not going accept any OBC is capable of giving up reservations like you did. And they say caste and prejudice exists only in the minds of the OBCS!
anonymous,
'An opportunity is simply and opportunity.It is not tagged as mine or yours.Thats what I wish.'
Very true. But these 'opportunities' seem to carry caste-tags until now in India. Could you explain why there are so few OBCs in the institutions we are talking about until now? Seem more like 'privileges' than 'opportunities'.
anonymous,
That is the psychology from which all “social reforms” or “welfare states” or “noble experiments” or the destruction of the world have come.'
Good- that's what we want to dismantle - a 'welfare state' built on the sweat, blood and toil of the lower castes but working only to shower privileges on the upper castes.
Dear OBC Voice,
This is the first commentor on your post.
Up untill now, I read all that you wrote with interest.
But seeing your latest comments I can not draw the difference between you and Arjun Singh.
You provided the link to the creamy layer stats and when someone asks you questions about whether it is actually 3 lk you squirm away from answering it crisply and say it is different in different states. You know why? Because your heart tells you that it is unjust to call someone making 3 lk a year as non-creamy...But you dont want to admit that.Irrespective of region, you know that.
In a quiet moment reflect and see whether you in your personal life thought that you needed reservation after your brilliant aptitude?
Since you say that people keep asking you things and never reply, let me reply to that point about " opportunities not being tagged"
Look no one is saying that there is equality as yet in the society.No one is denying the fact that the backward class is completely socially reformed.So please steer away from the idea that we believe everything is fine.No its not.
But did you see the line below" I said if I make 20k and you make 20k then both our kids must slog"
I was comparing 2 people with the same economic status.
It is completely unfair to give preference to a person who is at the same economic status as a fellow upper caste guy.
Why are you spreading negative propoganda in your blog saying that everyone thinks that OBC's are lazy and incompetent.If you are blogging on such a sensitive issue i think you must not forget your social responsiblity.You are just igniting some minds with your fiery sentences.Once again like politicians do.
There are many sane minded rational OBC's who may come to your blog and feel after reading what you write that" everyone thinks we are lazy and incompetent" I know it is your space but considering your topic you have a moral and social responsibility.
Who said OBC's are lazy? I personally lauded you for your skill of writing, and Pro-reservation when he said he never took any reservations.Can you see the pride with which he writes that?? It is because no one can tell him that you are what you are today because you have the advantage of reservations.
I had a OBC friend who did not take any public sector job and faced tough interviews to get into a huge private sector company. He told me" I dont want anyone to say that reservation ke vajah se job mila" today he is doing well and very proud.
Again I am talking about the urban youth.Who have parents who make a a good enough income.
Ours is a society where academic performance is the considered the metrics of how good a student is.When a guy gets awesome percentage and gets into a institution and then in his class he sees people with close to 10% to 15% less than him he thinks they are not as good as him.Right or wrong this is what happens.
So the reservations system automatically creates a division in the class.Remember this division is not because that persons ancestors were doing some menial job,but just because they got in easily.
So while attempting equality,reservation actually divides.
Why do you keep portraying the upper caste as rich bastards?There would be a sizeable number of uppercaste people who dont even reach closer to the creamy layer mark.
Again and again it is you who is trying to divide by sprouting hatred against the upper caste.You dont even realise that this is happening.Your blog has no longer remained a platform for discussion of this issue but you have intentionally/unintentionally converted it into a upper caste bashing forum.
No commentor ever told you that even the economically backward OBC's must be left out.But you conviniently hide that in your numbers.I personally support reservations for them.
You keep saying that these institutions are filled with uppercaste people.Did they get in with no effort?? why are you nullifying the fact that these people are the ones who appear in exams where lakhs contest and a few hundred get chosen.Are they not deserving of those seats? Did they take your seat?
I dont understand your last statement at all. Again it is all fiery and no content.
If I studied late into the night,in order to get into a IIT or IIM how is my getting into either institutions related to your sweat and blood???
If anything it is related to my sweat.
You are no longer a OBC voice, But Upper caste Basher thats what you have converted yourself into.
BYE
"Good- that's what we want to dismantle - a 'welfare state' built on the sweat, blood and toil of the lower castes but working only to shower privileges on the upper castes."
"The moral cannibalism of all hedonist and altruist doctrines lies in the premise that the happiness of one man necessitates the injury of another.
Most people hold this premise as an absolute not to be questioned.
And when one speaks of man’s right to exist for his own sake, for his own rational self-interest, most people assume automatically that this means his right to sacrifice others. Such an assumption is a confession of their own belief that to injure, enslave, rob or murder others is in man’s self-interest—
which he must selflessly renounce. The idea that man’s self-interest can be served only by a non-sacrificial relationship with others has never occurred to those humanitarian apostles of unselfishness, who proclaim their desire to achieve the brotherhood of men. And it will not occur to them, or to anyone, so long as the concept “rational” is omitted from the context of “values,” “desires,” “self-interest” and ethics."--AR
"Men who deny individual rights cannot claim, defend or uphold any rights whatsoever.
They advocate the sacrifice of all individual rights to unlimited majority rule—yet posture as defenders of the rights of minorities. But the smallest
minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights, cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.
Accumulation of contradictions, of shortsighted pragmatism, of
cynical contempt for principles, of outrageous irrationality, has now reached its climax in the new demands of the Caste leaders.
Instead of fighting against caste discrimination, they are demanding that caste discrimination be legalized and enforced. Instead of fighting against casteism, they are demanding the establishment of caste quotas. Instead of fighting for “caste-blindness” in social and economic issues, they are
proclaiming that “caste-blindness” is evil and that “caste” should be made a primary consideration. Instead of fighting for equal rights, they are demanding special caste privileges.
But the question must be not whether a group recognizable in caste
has its rights as a group. No, the question is whether any Indian individual, regardless of caste is deprived of his rights as an Indian. If the individual has all the rights and privileges due him under the laws and the Constitution, we need not worry about groups and masses—those do not, in fact, exist, except as figures of speech.”--AR(with changes to context)
Ms. A. RAND,
Funny, you should feel this altruistic urge to 'enlighten' people like me so very strongly.
"Funny, you should feel this altruistic urge to 'enlighten' people like me so very strongly."
"Still another kind of soul is revealed by the man who takes pleasure, not in achievement, but in destruction, whose action is aimed, not at attaining efficacy, but at ruling those who have attained it: the soul of a man so abjectly lacking in self-value, and so overwhelmed by terror of existence,
that his sole form of self-fulfillment is to unleash his resentment and hatred against those who do not share his state, those who are able to live—as if, by
destroying the confident, the strong and the healthy, he could convert impotence into efficacy."--AR
Funny that now everyone is saying that caste is never in the back of their mind.
So these proponents of 'Psuedo Equality' should tell what kind of protest they were doing by sweeping the streets and shining shoes ? If they consider that work so low then what they will think of those who do it?
I am seriously sick of these Ayn Randians.
hey all,
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1.Do you then think that the 'forwarding' of the upper caste people until now has been dependent on the 'backwarding' of the lower castes?
my line was not aimed to imply that.PLease read it again.
As a matter of fact,general catagory people are not asking for reservations for them anywhere.They just want an open healthy competition at the level of graduation.
2.2)If caste exists only in the minds of the lower castes ...why are you still taliking about upper and lower castes?
To make YOU understand my point.else i wouldnt be posting here.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
link
click on this link and you will know how futile it is to make OBCvoice understand your point.Dont try to convince him,else you want to waste your time...
I know i wasnt supposed to be posting comments here any longer,but this one was important.Important for me,because i want to avoid those sleepless nights i suffer whenever im wronged.So I needed to state my clarifications;stating it is more important for me than reading it for you is.Also,my justification here is certainly NOT aimed at any empathy or sympathy that i may seem to expect from you (not anymore at least-empathy i mean,never sympathy) and your supporters,but rather,as i said,i am writing it as a part of my own peace of mind.Reading it or ignoring it is entirely your personal decision.
anonymous' comment says-(and you seem to agree to it) "absolute no brainers and sickeningly racist beings like manee" is an evidence of the futility I am getting being here,but beyond that its the proof of how AWEFULLY i have been misunderstood.My heart knows what all i feel when I see the poor,the needy...when i see the rickshaw pullar sweating in the sun completely oblivious of what we all call air-conditioners,what all i feel when i see the new born kids of the construction labourers half naked...sitting on the concrete playing with stones...what i feel when i see old beggars barely able to see or walk...i know it,and i dont believe i need to support reservations in order to prove that i can be as compassionate as these pro reservationists.Coz deep down I know,nothing ABSOLUTELY nothing will reach to these roadside beggars,these unfortunate children of construction workers,or the poor rickshaw pullars when the so called 'benefits' of a reserved seat in IIT or AIIMS would seep down to that level-a level where people dont get food twice a day.Even after 27% hike in quota,i will still see them in dejected poverty as today.Difference will only be in the number of people migrating as a part of brain drain,larger % of vacant seats in these educational institutions,more strife between the youth on the name of caste.Sorry,but if being against reservations makes me an absolutely no brainer and a sickeningly racist being,then what am I to explain?Do I?
OBviously, being understood by you or anybody else here,is not going to vindicate me ,nor being misunderstood by you will ever signify my failure.But failure it is-for India's unity and the belief in me that we Indians have the heart that empathises with all human beings,untill you came in and annihilated my perceptions by introducing me to the draconian casteism that exists in even today's youth-majorly in their psyches(even you).I dont know whether i should thank you or curse you for the same.
It was never a war between you and me of "who convinces whom"....rather it was an abortive attempt to understand and be understood.Not you,but surely I was wrong when I presumed that pro reservation people would still at least be able to listen to what I would say...never knowing my views will be condemned and I will be humiliated on this otherwise 'great' blog.
As far as my supposedly narcissic, aristrocratic comments about Mozart etc are concerned-they began where your taunts ended (e.g. "you should be placed with the geniuses...blah blah").I did it because I dont get mad-I get even.LIke a kindness for a kindness; an insult for an insult.Fair enough.
Anyway, thanks for giving me your precious time,now and before,and i assure you,i will not bother you from now on.
P.S: Being highly patient,benevolent and empathising person as you are,if there is anything in this world you could still do for a sickeningly racist like me,dont reply to this comment.I shall feel highly obliged.
P.P.S: IQ score of 148 huh?? Highest IQ ever attained by any musician is 149 and considering you at 148,that too at my age is an inkling tot he fact...you just may be MOZART in disguise.Try your hands at music sometime,you can prove to be a prodigy.
Golden Rules of blogging and commenting on OBCVoice.blogspot
1.Show numbers only that show that reflect that OBC's do not have adequate representation in institutions.How dare you mention that after 22.5% seats being with them and yet seats are vacant how will this surge to 27% help? Ofcourse create more vacant seats you idiot upper caste no-brainer.Forget the grass root problem that if OBC seats have been vacant even today then there is something fundamentally wrong and the reason is not being investigated.
2.All upper caste people are devil incarnate.The are so dispicable that they are opposing the reservations just because they are in secret meetings all the upper caste has decided that OBC's must not flourish.Shut up and dont speak about whether the poor barber and sweeper have heard about IIt and IIM and have the economic power to get advantage of this reservation.Dont let your mind waiver and think about the implementation power of a old dog in the government who as yet is confused how many OBC's are there in this country.
3.Dont use words like merit at all.You went to all those classes for preparation.(well in that case all 5000 people in a batch of IIT preparation should have got into IIT.But they dont because not all putting in the same effort) But rob the pride of these students who made it by calling the educational system a big farce.Wonder whether they will say the same about a meritious OBC student.
4.The word equality has to always be in quotation marks.
5.Unless your link to some saying or article is in favour of reservation dont even dare to put it in here.It will soon be rubbished too.And philosophy is an absolute no-no..A Rand?? Your crazy or something??
5.Dont try to even say that you side the economically backward OBC .You are the upper caste.You will soon be told that you have no heart, you are an outsider.
6.The word "unprivilged" and oppressor will be used against you a lot of times.Dont cite personal experiences where you after having worked hard saw a fellow city youth with the same or better economic status get through with 15% less than you cause of his caste.A true privilge for that guy, but no he is the unpriviliged and you are the oppressor.Please dont even try to contest that ok.Also personal experience is not evidence. Well if our lives dont reflect what is happening in society then i wonder what is??
7.Bear the utopian optimism that the poor (be it upper caste or OBC) who finds it difficult to get his kids through school will get the advantage of this scheme.This is not a futile attempt to get OBC votes. And is gonna get more betterment for the OBC's .something that 22.5% could not.
8.Oh Sorry in the above point did I say that the upper caste can be poor..Oh NO NO nO..the upper caste cant be poor!!! thats the rule.
9.Use fiery sentences while commenting or writing.Call yourself a shudra and then wage a battle against the caste system
10.Spoil any attempt of the upper caste in lauding your talent and push him away when he says that the economically sound OBC's can integrate into society.Dont talk of integeration. Divide as much as you can. Keep restricted to your own group and reject any hands that ask you to sit and discuss.
11.Be ready that your intentions how ever good, your feelings for the poor however sincere will be ridiculed .
12.Though the youth can infuse a new way of thinking keep thinking in the way the biased 50 year old politicians think.
13.Be sure to be criticised for not accepting the government proposal to increase seats.PLease dont talk about the fact that in places like Maharashtra where I come from ,enginnering colleges run by sugar barons( and lobbyied govt funding) make a big mockery of what should be a enginneering college. Empty rooms as your practical labs and faculty that could not qualify to teach even class 5 teaching engineering graduates.
14.Rational is another word to be always used in quotes.
Once you have understood these rules it is all smooth sailing...Happy blogging and commenting.
Jai Hind.
anonymous (last),
I'll admit some of the points you
made did make me laugh. but:
'Though the youth can infuse a new way of thinking keep thinking in the way the biased 50 year old politicians think.'
The biased 50 yr old politicians used all kinds of ploys to keep the OBC representation in the institutions now 'under siege' at almost zero levels for 50 long years.
No more old 'youthful thinking' in new bottles.
manee,
calm down. relax. read my response again. does it seem like i am calling you names?
OBC Voice,
Some times you really put your foot in your own mouth..Did you really think before you wrote this??
The biased 50 yr old politicians used all kinds of ploys to keep the OBC representation in the institutions now 'under siege' at almost zero levels for 50 long years.
Thats is why one must think different from them.Think about questioning efficacy of these plans ,think about public -interest litigations,Think about fighting as one and making these lousy politicians accountable.
Thats what I was hoping the young students could do.But you dont seem to get the point.ALl you know is a battle of us against you.And that what your blog is spreading ..Hate , Hate and more hate.
Also it is politicians you gave away 27% and got the total reservations at a staggering 49.5% in Maharashtra.
And lastly if politicians actually
used all kinds of ploys to keep the OBC representation in the institutions now 'under siege' at almost zero levels for 50 long years then how what makes you so confident that they wont do it now???
Do you know your own good??
"I am seriously sick of these Ayn Randians."
The moral principle to adopt in this issue, is: “Judge, and be prepared to
be judged.”--AR
anonymous,
did you read any of my posts at all?
the politicians have always represented your interests..it's not much different now..that's why i've called the elitist students' protest a nautanki. what are they protesting against? against politicians who have always protected the upper castes' interests at the cost of all other sections? against politicians who are now bending over backwards to see that no upper caste student goes without a seat because of the quota?
you created the divide..now reap the whirlwind.
My contacts with Libertarians always leave me with a certain amount of contempt for their philosophies, which all seem to rely on the assumption that, if you can string together enough vague and high-sounding rhetoric, you can ignore both (1) all of human history and (2) what everyone else on earth now wants.
-- Unknown
OBcvoice
You very well know how to skip the arguments you cant face.
keep it up.It will take you far in politics.
You:"against politicians who have always protected the upper castes' interests at the cost of all other sections?"
ME: ha ha ha.good one there.
My contacts with OBCVOICE always leave me with a certain amount of contempt for his philosophies, who seems to rely on the assumption that, if you can string together enough vague and high-sounding rhetoric(also primitive data figures,if possible), you can ignore both
(1) reasonings for why reservations should NOT be there
(2) and logic.
"My contacts with Libertarians always leave me with a certain amount of contempt for their philosophies, which all seem to rely on the assumption that, if you can string together enough vague and high-sounding rhetoric, you can ignore both (1) all of human history and (2) what everyone else on earth now wants."
Since nature does not guarantee automatic security, success and survival to any human being, it is only the dictatorial presumptuousness and the moral cannibalism of the altruist-collectivist code that permits a man to suppose (or idly to daydream) that he can somehow guarantee such security to some men at the expense of others.
If a man speculates on what “society” should do for the poor, he accepts thereby the collectivist premise that men’s lives belong to society and that he, as a member of society, has the right to dispose of them, to set their goals or to plan the “distribution” of their efforts.--AR
'dont wrestle with a pig, You get dirty and the pig likes it'.
Having gone through all the posts and comments on this blog, I realize that there is no point in arguing with a fellow whos determined to keep himself and others backward.
anonymous (last),
'I realize that there is no point in arguing with a fellow whos determined to keep himself and others backward.'
You realized that you didn't have a point.period.
"You realized that you didn't have a point.period."
I realized you are a pig.period.
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