Manudal
It has been said before.. but it looks like it has to be said again and again.. and a million times and more for it to sink into the minds of those finding excuses for this fight for 'equality' , that Manu was the original Mandal, that the majority of those working in/running the 'inefficient', 'incompetent' 'deficient-in-merit' Indian bureaucracy and public sector and organised industry are/were Manu's favorite children. And the backward classes? Until 1990 you could attribute less than 4% of this 'inefficiency' to them. Read on:
'It needs to be borne in mind that this large group of OBCs, who constitute close to 60 per cent of the population, had a negligible presence of about 4 per cent in government employment when these recommendations were implemented. Also worth bearing in mind is the fact that even this small representation in employment was restricted to the lower rungs of government jobs. In other words, the overwhelming majority of public services were monopolised by the small crust of upper castes. In one estimation made by sociologist Satish Deshpande, about 20 per cent of the population controlled about 95 per cent of all jobs. Deshpande has also recently calculated the poverty-caste relationship on the basis of the National Sample Survey Organisation consumption data which confirm the strong relationship between low-caste status and poverty. However, what is relevant here is not merely the incidence of poverty among different 'backward' caste groups but more importantly, the fact that even among the relatively better-off and educated sections of Dalits (the Untouchable castes) and OBCs, access to public employment, especially at the higher levels, is severely restricted. In other words, as Ram Naresh Kushwaha, an OBC parliamentarian had put it in a parliament debate in 1978, the upper castes have always had informal reservations operating for them in employment; jobs were reserved for them. Manusmriti itself, he had claimed, was nothing other than a reservation of certain jobs for only a certain category of people.'
Link, thanks to We-Support-Reservations.
posted by obc voice @ 2:41 AM
20 Comments:
some thoughts ; and i know its difficult to do but try to take a detatched view ;
1. Primary education : y dont you raise a voice for the quality of primary education? The proportion of people reaching a stage of higher education ( of any caste) is miniscule ...Even if we accept the fact that 60 % of indians would be categorized as OBC how many of them would be able to benefit?.Surely a focus on primary education would be for the greater good. Close down on all higher education institutes IITS , IIMs...the lot... for all castes ..shudnt WE and specifically YOU be fighting for better primary education?
2. Agreed the treatment of lower castes has been deplorable by the upper castes. But surely two wrongs can never make a right?...what u propose are injustices to solve other historical crimes ?....dont you see nothing is perfect?...after a generation or two of these reservations ull have a vast ill educated populace of upper castes....
3.I was a student at IITD and IIMA ...ive met a lot of pple from the SC/ST quotas ( incidently ALL of them much better off than me ..by way of politician/bureaucrat/psu parents). I genuinely believe that IIT/IIM was the worst possible thing they did with their lives. They were all talented in one way or the other but thrust into an environment of pple who had come in the hard way and had much more to lose they could not compete. It was not their fault but misplaced expectations of society that was their un doing. Most of them left with shattered egos , forever questioning their identities and their place in the world. I can only imagine the gnawing feeling they must feel when they would question their conscious on whether they deserved wherever the degree got them?...I wouldnt wish that fate on my worst enemy.
I also know of some SC friends who competed in the general category and got through...these people are among the very few in the world i have the utmost respect for and pride in.
If you are an OBC you belong to a set of people who have suffered deplorably under the so called upper caste. I cannot begin to imagine the treatment meted out to your forefathers and it feels me with the utmost shame. You are right to feel aggrieved . But surely you would realize that reservation in higher learning is the last thing you want. You should raise your voice for bigger things like primary education , basic health care for all indians....Try thinking about it .....the choice is essentially between a short cut to 'faked' greatness and the long path of true glory and exorcising the demons of the past.
my post is essentially meaningless..i am not telling you nething you dont know.. just airing my views pls delete it if you so wish.
"Primary education : why dont you raise a voice for the quality of primary education?"
Why didnt the anti-reservationists raise any voice for primary education till now? Only when uppercaste seats in elite institutions are in jeopardy, suddenly they think about such serious things like primary education for all? i am sure no one is against universal primary education.
2. "two wrongs can never make a right?"
Reservation is not a "wrong." it is the only (very small, though) practical solution to create a middle class among the currently (not just historically) deprived sections.
3. about the reserved catergory students you say""Most of them left with shattered egos , forever questioning their identities and their place in the world."
With all of you continously harping on "merit" and keeping on harping that they do not deserve to be here, how do you expect them to remain sane? Do not act as if you feel for them. you have made them alienated in a place they DESERVE to be, as their RIGHT! Instead you have, and the majority of their teachers who support you and your philosophy of exclusion would have made them feel like suckers of the system. The truth is previleged people like you and me are the suckers...
Clearly you speak of things you know nothing of....
the question of marginalising neone of non-'upper caste' at IIT/IIM doesnt arise ....one usually doesnt know if someone is a quota canidate until GPAs come out ..and then u can guess within a sufficiently strong confidence interval.
I would think it would logically follow that people who had the most to gain from a stronger primary education system would most firmly back it ....and clearly from your previous arguments that would mean you.
Your talk is dangerous. If you read your history painting of entire communties with the same brush ...('the conniving upper castes';) has led to the most ghastly incidents imaginable. Do you really believe upper castes have a hidden imaginary place where they go and plot against OBCs?
Everything faintly connected to an upper caste is an object of evil ....'they went to iits but iits havent produced much scientific output neway...ie they got good resources but being complete idiots frittered it away...' this is pure infantile behaviour....
Why reservations ? ...I guess your aim is that it would produce a trickle down effect and lead to upliftment ...i can assure you no such thing will occur. you will never find the poor downtrodden dalit living in some orrisa village benefitting from the system ...bcos what he direly needs is education for his children and primary healthcare ....which you seem to have resolved to not care for in a fit of finger pointing.
The conditions of a large number of dalits in india is deplorable ...an agitation IS required for their upliftment ..an agitation on par if not more vociferous then the one for the precious few higher education seats.
You may want to white wash the ills of the past through reserving a few seats ...what will u say 50 years from now .....upper castes ruled over us for thousands of years but we took away their education and jobs so everything is hunky dory now ...believe me it doesnt work that way.
please read this points from article in rediff news by Francois Gautier-Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?
There are 50 Sulabh Shauchalayas (public toilets) in Delhi; all of them are cleaned and looked after by Brahmins (this very welcome public institution was started by a Brahmin). A far cry from the elitist image that Brahmins have!
There are five to six Brahmins manning each Shauchalaya. They came to Delhi eight to ten years back looking for a source of income, as they were a minority in most of their villages, where Dalits are in majority (60 per cent to 65 per cent). In most villages in UP and Bihar, Dalits have a union which helps them secure jobs in villages.
Did you know that you also stumble upon a number of Brahmins working as coolies at Delhi's railway stations? One of them, Kripa Shankar Sharma, says while his daughter is doing her Bachelors in Science he is not sure if she will secure a job.
"Dalits often have five to six kids, but they are confident of placing them easily and well," he says. As a result, the Dalit population is increasing in villages. He adds: "Dalits are provided with housing, even their pigs have spaces; whereas there is no provision for gaushalas (cowsheds) for the cows of the Brahmins
You also find Brahmin rickshaw pullers in Delhi. 50 per cent of Patel Nagar's rickshaw pullers are Brahmins who like their brethren have moved to the city looking for jobs for lack of employment opportunities and poor education in their villages.
Even after toiling the whole day, Vijay Pratap and Sidharth Tiwari, two Brahmin rickshaw pullers, say they are hardly able to make ends meet. These men make about Rs 100 to Rs 150 on an average every day from which they pay a daily rent of Rs 25 for their rickshaws and Rs 500 to Rs 600 towards the rent of their rooms which is shared by 3 to 4 people or their families.
Did you also know that most rickshaw pullers in Banaras are Brahmins?
This reverse discrimination is also found in bureaucracy and politics. Most of the intellectual Brahmin Tamil class has emigrated outside Tamil Nadu. Only 5 seats out of 600 in the combined UP and Bihar assembly are held by Brahmins -- the rest are in the hands of the Yadavs.
400,000 Brahmins of the Kashmir valley, the once respected Kashmiri Pandits, now live as refugees in their own country, sometimes in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi in appalling conditions. But who gives a damn about them? Their vote bank is negligible.
And this is not limited to the North alone. 75 per cent of domestic help and cooks in Andhra Pradesh are Brahmins. A study of the Brahmin community in a district in Andhra Pradesh (Brahmins of India by J Radhakrishna, published by Chugh Publications) reveals that today all purohits live below the poverty line.
Eighty per cent of those surveyed stated that their poverty and traditional style of dress and hair (tuft) had made them the butt of ridicule. Financial constraints coupled with the existing system of reservations for the 'backward classes' prevented them from providing secular education to their children.
In fact, according to this study there has been an overall decline in the number of Brahmin students. With the average income of Brahmins being less than that of non-Brahmins, a high percentage of Brahmin students drop out at the intermediate level. In the 5 to 18 year age group, 44 per cent Brahmin students stopped education at the primary level and 36 per cent at the pre-matriculation level.
The study also found that 55 per cent of all Brahmins lived below the poverty line -- below a per capita income of Rs 650 a month. Since 45 per cent of the total population of India is officially stated to be below the poverty line it follows that the percentage of destitute Brahmins is 10 per cent higher than the all-India figure.
There is no reason to believe that the condition of Brahmins in other parts of the country is different. In this connection it would be revealing to quote the per capita income of various communities as stated by the Karnataka finance minister in the state assembly: Christians Rs 1,562, Vokkaligas Rs 914, Muslims Rs 794, Scheduled castes Rs 680, Scheduled Tribes Rs 577 and Brahmins Rs 537.
Appalling poverty compels many Brahmins to migrate to towns leading to spatial dispersal and consequent decline in their local influence and institutions. Brahmins initially turned to government jobs and modern occupations such as law and medicine. But preferential policies for the non-Brahmins have forced Brahmins to retreat in these spheres as well.
According to the Andhra Pradesh study, the largest percentage of Brahmins today are employed as domestic servants. The unemployment rate among them is as high as 75 per cent. Seventy percent of Brahmins are still relying on their hereditary vocation. There are hundreds of families that are surviving on just Rs 500 per month as priests in various temples (Department of Endowments statistics).
Priests are under tremendous difficulty today, sometimes even forced to beg for alms for survival. There are innumerable instances in which Brahmin priests who spent a lifetime studying Vedas are being ridiculed and disrespected.
At Tamil Nadu's Ranganathaswamy Temple, a priest's monthly salary is Rs 300 (Census Department studies) and a daily allowance of one measure of rice. The government staff at the same temple receive Rs 2,500 plus per month. But these facts have not modified the priests' reputation as 'haves' and as 'exploiters.' The destitution of Hindu priests has moved none, not even the parties known for Hindu sympathy.
Freedom to convert exists. Why then can't I convert to OBC?
freedom to convert exist. that is why most of the scs and sts want to get out of the system. the obcs might join the trend soon!
what about my post mr obc voice, u had not commented anything
yes
reservations would only deprive the country of talented minds when they escape to foreignlands after being disowned by their own country...
and rights of OBCs are reservations?i think its hilarious.
if im deprived of all these comforts and subjected all forms of humiliations that the backward classes have faced....depriving me of food for days.Even that,i believe wont give me the RIGHT to reserve a table in the five star hotel claiming that the 'priviledged' have had too much of it and need to be kicked out of the hotel for being upper class.
I will never beg for my rights that i so much desperately want to eat at the 5 star hotel.That ways im just insulting my own self.An empty stomach is more acceptable to me than being looked down upon as the quota tresspasser.
hi obc voice,
its really pathetic and shame on you people. why do you want to get to AIIMS or IIT if you dont deserve it? i would say this quota system is a crap. how you will get to feel the equality if you dont follow a fair procedure in getting into the college's.
Dear OBC Voice,
Firstly i dont know why you choose to hide behind your caste identity even today. this is the most amazing level of stupidity i have ever seen. People fighting over a two-thousand year old system on cyberspace. i have a few questions for those who are supporting the quotas and those who are not--
1. how does a person who cant feed his family benefit from reservations to IITs and IIMs?
2. how does a person (irrespective of caste), who does not even know how to sign his own name(thats the official level of literacy) benefit from reservations?
3. how does reservations to IITs and IIMs heal the past wrongs? why just past even present wrongs need to be addressed. is it the eye-for-an-eye policy? then i am afraid its time for India to go back to the dark ages.
4. why is the country with the largest working force of people below 30 fighting over caste?
i am afraid that i do not support reservations on the basis of caste. the problem is not that of caste or merit. past injustices cant be healed by higher education. even Ambedkar would laugh at that. i think that OBCs and upper castes like need to look at Ambedkar's teachings. there is much to learn from him.
in my humble and unimportant opinion, i would like to suggest that there be joint agitation for reservation on economic basis. the british ruled us for two hundred years because we fought amongst ourselves. are we going to give the government the same opportunity? we are fighting over reservations that do not solve anybody's problem. the stigma attached to caste will ensure effective discrimination. india will lose its market edge if we allow this mindless mayhem to continue. i am a law student from kolkata, i come from a fairly well to do middle class family and i am also incidentally a brahmin (though i do not go by this identity as i am a firm believer in communism). i have enjoyed all the invisible reservations that have been talked about, but i can still say that economic reservations in all institutions of education-primary, secondary or tertiary will help us all. why are we fighting each other when we should be challenging the government for not fulfilling its promises as laid down in the constitution of india? why are we letting the governmnet get away with such trvial and politically motivated moves when we should ask for deeper and longer lasting change. time is still with us. we can change india if we can change ourselves.
The term merit harped on by many is not the true yard stick of worth of a person. It is one of the ways to exclude majority of the people. about 90 percent of Govt. and public sector jobs are reserved for these meritorius students and look at the efficiency with which they work. I think OBC or other quota candidates will do better job than them. True democracy means proportionate opportunities for each category of people. These meritorius students want to hijack all the opportunities.
Last anonymous,
A comment, no jobs are reserved for meritous students, infact 50% are reserved fro SC/ST and OBC... that does not mean they have no merit but just pointing something out to you.
If you do not know the benefits, how will you take advantage of the same...
Just a thought.
Thanks.
I somehow don't seem to understand how reservations will solve anything. The great success story of reservations in Tamilnadu is a farce. I find engineering students from crappy institutions making it to the IT giants like oracle et all. I found it surprising at first and it became clearer when I found out they had better cut offs and the 69% reservations had pushed them to the worst colleges. Now that's what merit is all about. Either you can shape up or ship out. Private sector reservations will make an africa out of India. All the economic activity will shift to other more condusive environments like china. The politicians are pimps of the first order. To be mislead by their benovalent acts is a stupid approach to reservations.
My question is simple.
My friend and I goto the same school, our parents have similar sources of revenue, we go to the same coaching classes. The results come out and I get to goto a crappy college and the guy next door makes it to the top colleges just cos he is xyz by caste. If that's equality under the constitution it sucks. No the past wrongs don't justify fresh discrimination.
i think i need to pour some light why 69% reservations in tn is a success.
reasons are:
1.There are many private institutions which are set up by the talented rich people (general catagory) which are not dependent on the government for any funds.These are the places where the general catagory students find way after being rejected due to 69% reservations in govt aided educational institutions.
2.The rich brahimins somehow convice their OBC farmers to adopt their sons and daughters to acquire OBC certificate which then gives them the equal opportunity to compete with the OBCs there.(Its funny to read this line,isnt it?)
So if there is one law,there are 10 ways of breaking it.
'poli,
Dear OBC Voice,
Firstly i dont know why you choose to hide behind your caste identity even today'..
Because you are hiding your caste identity behind your 'oh-god-this-is-so-stupid ' brand of 'modern' objectivity. Because a lot of people hide their inherent biases when they say they're for 'equality' I'm trying to bring my biases into the open and air them.
'1.how does a person who cant feed his family benefit from reservations to IITs and IIMs?'
who is this person? if you mean obc candidates applying for IIT/IIMs ..it's because it would motivate other OBCs to assign more priority to education.
'2.how does a person (irrespective of caste), who does not even know how to sign his own name(thats the official level of literacy) benefit from reservations?'
same answer as above.
'3.how does reservations to IITs and IIMs heal the past wrongs?'
nothing can heal the past wrongs. reservations are only token effort at current 'imbalances'.
'4. why is the country with the largest working force of people below 30 fighting over caste?'
I think it is showing great courage by recognizing caste as the enemy (if that is the reason behind this fight). If it isn't fighting over caste..and thinks it's irrelevant, then caste will not simply disappear because you choose to ignore it.
and if you think 'economic reservations', whatever they are, are the solution.. you're trying to skirt the issue that poverty is distributed along caste lines in India.
free-for-discussion,
I think you should take the report you quote to Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch or even the UNHCHR - the evidence you present is solid.
last anonymous commenter,
'My friend and I goto the same school, our parents have similar sources of revenue, we go to the same coaching classes. The results come out and I get to goto a crappy college and the guy next door makes it to the top colleges just cos he is xyz by caste. If that's equality under the constitution it sucks.'
I think it sucks too. Why don't you agitate for more seats?
poli,
'3.how does reservations to IITs and IIMs heal the past wrongs?'
nothing can heal the past wrongs. reservations are only token effort at current 'imbalances'.
please read it as 'token efforts to correct 'current imbalances''
for those who wants to know some statistics abt indian population.
Large percentage of Indian Muslims
Sikhs,christs, Bhudhists are converted from lower caste hindus just coz they wanted to escape exploitation by upper caste Hindus.
Do u remember meenakshipuram??? (1981).......whole village turned muslim coz of exploitation by upper castes. dont stress us too much........we are given what our percenatge populatin is...whats ur problem??
ur problem is ur 50 % having large competition then our 50 % coz we are hugely underdeveloped !!
Do we need to remind u of various pacts signed before independence???
why did u not raised any single voice against Dalit exploitatin
there are lot of complaints .....let india be united.
Satya
satya,
the truth is bitter.those who've grown up on sugar and honey can't digest it i suppose.
welcome.
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