The malady of India lies elsewhere
What does Justice Krishna Iyer think of 'efficiency' lost because of reservations?
"Trite arguments about efficiency are a trifle phoney. ... We are not impressed with the misfortune about the governmental personnel being manned by morons, merely because a sprinkling of harijans and Girijans happened to find their way into the service. The malady of modern India lies elsewhere, and the merit monger are greater risks in many respects than the native tribals, and slightly better off lower caste. .. The fundamental question arises, as to what's 'merit' and 'suitability'? Elitists, whose sympathies with the masses have dried up, are from standards of Indian people, least suitable to run the government and least meritorious to handle the state business. ... A sensitized heart and vibrant head tuned to the tears of the people, will speedily quicken the developmental needs of the country... Sincere dedication and intellectual integrity - these are some of the components of merit and suitability- not a degree from Oxford or Cambridge, Harvard or Simian. Unfortunately, the very orientation of our selection process is distorted and those like the candidates from Scheduled Castes whom from their birth, have a traumatic understanding of the conditions of agrestic India, have in one sense more capability than those who lived under affluent circumstances and are callous to the human lot of the sorrowing masses."
posted by obc voice @ 9:39 AM
17 Comments:
Dear Sir/Madam
Please "think" for a while, and try to understand what you have written! Making mere objective statements does not require any effort, but it does not even justify your cause.
1. You have branded the students opposing reservations as "elitists". Although that is not true, yet, assuming it would be true, why do you want a share of their "elite" institutes, when you so despise the "elitist" tag. Better have separate insitutes for the OBCs, which can cater to the "masses".
2. You have pointed out that it is not enterpreneurs like Nilekani or L.N.Mittal, but people involved in small scale industries, who are responsible for the Indian growth. I agree about the people in Small industries, but why such a negative bias towards the people who are pouring in millions of dollars. And mind you, it is these dollars which provide the "needy", and the "downtrodden" with food, home and education.
3. You also allege that people with good education do not have a sensitized heart and have stunted intellectual capability. Well, mere statements are easy to make. But I think you realise that the present President is a Scientist, Prime Minister is an economist, and Finance Minister is a Harvard educated graduate. Do you label them as "unqualified" for running this nation!
indianschoolkids,
you ascribe too big a role to me, and by extension-the obcs, in national policy making. reservations is a government policy-who am i to justify it?
let me illustrate: the obc MPs constitute, roughly, one fourth of the total strength in the present parliament. IN 1990, when the Mandal commision recommendations were brought before parliament, they were around 15-20%, maybe less. So more than 80% of MPs supporting reservations were non-obcs. It's, mainly, their business to 'justify' it.
aashwit,
you began :'Please "think" for a while, and try to understand what you have written!'
why the emphasis on 'think'? i assume, you're confident that i'm not capable of "thinking". i'll take the charitable view that "you think" because i'm so emotionally wrought from all the anti-reservations onslaught on television that i'm not capable of 'objective thinking'.
1.'You have branded the students opposing reservations as "elitists".'
i'm glad to know they're not, in your view. but they're supporting a cause that is definitely elitist.
'Better have separate insitutes for the OBCs, which can cater to the "masses".'
jinnah would have agreed - why doesn't the government think about that, i wonder?(look who's dividing the country!) but the fact remains that because the 'obcs' too are citizens of the same country as you, they seem to think they've a right to enjoy services extended by institutions built by the government of india.. aren't they called 'indian institutes of blah..blah..'?
2.' You have pointed out that it is not enterpreneurs like Nilekani or L.N.Mittal, but people involved in small scale industries, who are responsible for the Indian growth. I agree about the people in Small industries,...'
i did not refer to L.N.Mittal, but to sunil mittal...and only because he has been talking nonsense on the issue (and so has bajaj, rahul). and nilekani.. he's in the so called (pm's) knowledge commision which has been indicating that reservations should be postponed till a' review is made'. the recommendations of the mandal commission effectively cleared the courts in 1993 (after being dragged 90-93, and before that through 82-90).. weren't these gentlemen aware of these facts? do they maintain the same level of ignorance when they deal with their customers/clients? shouldn't they be more aware of the environment their organizations function in? as business leaders, isn't it their business to be aware of social divisions within the country (even if they don't participate in any govt sponsored positive discrimination programme)? shouldn't they know their country? no, i'm not a cardcarrying member of any of the communist parties to blindly oppose investments.. we obcs mostly depend on our own hereditary skills and occupations to make a living..we understand the value of entrepreneurship and industry better than most other sections in the country (because the elite, barring a few, mostly depends on government jobs and on businesses built on goods and services bought by the largest buyer of goods and services in the country -the government). amit mitra of FICCi keeps chanting this figure that 49% of small businesses in the country are owned by obcs and dalits.. actually the figure is much more- most obcs depend on their own skills to survive ..They have no other choice because the government does/did not build any 'elitist' institutions where only they have the advantage over others. The whole reservations issue is about government playing favorites- they built the 'iits..etc.,' at a time when they knew most backward classes and dalits didn't have any basic facilities of schooling.. it built the public sector when it knew the investments in education were mostly being cornered by a select few castes in the country..and only they'd be getting jobs in those industries. .. it deliberately promoted the development of a middle class composed largely of a few castes. the desire (not demand, please note, because the obcs never actively sought reservations in the country in the same way as you are opposing them now - their disaffection hasn't totally evolved into a concrete theory until now) for reservations are one form of protest through which the frustration of the obcs is being expressed. it's only the tip of the iceberg.
3.'You also allege that people with good education do not have a sensitized heart and have stunted intellectual capability.'
aashwit, if you are referring to this post.. let me clarify : it's not me who's saying that (in this particular instance) but former supreme court justice krishna iyer, a man of great scholarship and integrity, who said that in one of his judgments(please follow the link). and i kind of agree with him.
indianschoolkids,
shouldn't ashwit be asking this question?
anyway,if you have the time, try to check the figures of how many upper castes people occupy positions of power in the public sector- in 1980, when mandal submitted his report he found that obcs in the public sector were less than 5%. so the 'credit' for the inefficiency of the public sector should go to the upper castes . that roughly is krishna iyer's argument. and as i said it seems correct to me.
i don't understand what is baseless about my agreement with iyer's argument.
i guess i'll follow your advice and try not to prove others wrong even when they are.
p.s. but who was i trying to prove wrong actually?
p.p.s.shouldn't you be in school?
i completely agree with you. but when i see the one sided reporting by our obviously biased media, i feel the obcs and poeple supporting the cause should have a platform to organise. if you know of one please let me know
I have also posted this stuff on youth for equality forum. I think this will be a more sane solution.
I'm NOT a caste benifitted person.
As much the "open" caste people would like to do away with quota
altogether, It cannot be done in just one step.The current quota system is very badly flawed, yet,The government cannot possibly rethink on decreasing the quota immediatly...it will lose a major vote bank.
So there has to be some negotiation so that the open category AND the
castes will both eventually get justice. The HRD minister has said that the gov is looking for a all-inclusive solution to the reservation debate.
Should you get achance to interact with the HRD minister,
Here are some suggestions that I propose you should include:
(1) The quotas cannot go on forever.Seek to end the quota system or atleast limit to least amount in a stipulated time frame...say 25-50 years.This should be done not in one step but decrease 1-2% of quota per year and finally abolish it altogether.Thus the changes will be gradual.
Thus the caste people will be pressurised to perform but in a gradual manner.
(2) Do away with separate quotas for BC, OBC, SC/ST, NT and the likes. One caste cannot be more repressed than other. A person can only be entitled for caste benefits or not. There should be no subdivisions so that only the most meritorius candidates even amongst the caste people should get admitted.
(3)Finally encourage GOs and NGOs to elevate the status of caste people to enable them to compete on equal grounds.
You are an independent thinking individual. I appreciate your concern for those who have been kept marginalised since ages. All are born equal and we need to be treated in the same manner. On the same premise dont assume that one wrong can correct another wrong. I f you think reservations are the answer, than kindly reserve 100% of evrything to females, for they have been the most marginalised since ages.
You are an independent thinking individual. I appreciate your concern for those who have been kept marginalised since ages. All are born equal and we need to be treated in the same manner. On the same premise dont assume that one wrong can correct another wrong. I f you think reservations are the answer, than kindly reserve 100% of evrything to females, for they have been the most marginalised since ages.
dharmesh,
i don't see the relevance of your questions. could you please explain?
light_of_erindir,
don't worry about the general category people..do you think the government(and the opposition) is not actively engaged in finding out ways to protect their interests... as always? i've seen it earlier and i can fairly guess where this is going..
'(2) Do away with separate quotas for BC, OBC, SC/ST, NT and the likes. One caste cannot be more repressed than other. A person can only be entitled for caste benefits or not. There should be no subdivisions so that only the most meritorius candidates even amongst the caste people should get admitted.'
the chamars in u.p. corner nearly 80% of the seats reserved for the scs..in a.p., the malas corner an equally large portion..if there were no categories within these groups and the obcs, reservations would be monopolised by a few.
harshadod,
i agree with your view that one wrong can't justify another.
we_support_reservations,
there are some caste groups in yahoo..one is called Zest.. i'm trying to organize one myself.. let me get back to you in a day or two ..meanwhile, i'll link to your blog.. my earnest appeal to all obcs is to start as many blogs as you can first..if you don't speak out, no one'll hear you.. if all the direct and veiled abuse being hurled on you in the streets, in the media, and on the net doesn't move you ..god help you..but remember, god and government have always been kinder to the others.
@harsha...I was merely pointing out politically correct solution for THIS particular problem.
Ideally, Everyone should be given the same level of education till 12th.
Then there would be no need of reservation on any basis. But this cannot happen in villages...at least not yet. The key is to improve studying environment everywhere in country ,and for that we need good infrastructure which reaches the remotest places.
The government should broadcast more channels like GYAN DARSHAN which allow students anywhere in the country to be addressed by experts in various subjects...so that the guidance they recieve is at par with that recieved in the cities.
@obc_voice...I don't think some particular BCs are treated worse than other BCs...A cobbler is as shunned as a bhangi by the upper castes.(Atleast that's what I've seen...but I'm not a BC so I don't know for sure if this is indeed the case) If they are not...it means that some castes (even among the BCs) have better opportunities than other...then why give them caste advantage at all? If some castes can monopolise the reservation...then they also should gradually be excluded from caste benefit.
light_of_erindir,
'If they are not...it means that some castes (even among the BCs) have better opportunities than other...then why give them caste advantage at all? If some castes can monopolise the reservation...then they also should gradually be excluded from caste benefit.'
you've actually raised a very valid question. there are some castes among the obcs(and in scs) who can actually monopolise most of the seats if they're bunched together with the others.. so states with successful reservations models have actually further categorised the obcs.. so that the strongest and the weakest are not put together in one class. most doubts about reservations can be answered ..and reviewed.. and modified and worked out..but who's asking them? now people are preparing to question the validity of not just mandal but caste itself..
dharmesh,
i am not trying to justify reservations at any stage.. all i'm asking you is, through so many different posts and posers, why do the dalits and the obcs find it so very difficult to get into the iits/iims fifty years after the Kaka Kalelkar commision was constituted in 1955? the commission was the first indicator that something was very grievously wrong with our education system because the obcs were hardly participating in it. the second issue is when the mandal commision was constituted in 1978 and and issued its report in 1980 it said that the obcs constitute less than 10% of the employess in the central government and the public sector..now think of the lakhs and lakhs of cushy (the only secure, high paying jobs in that period) jobs the obcs had lost from 1947 to 1993 when mandal was implemented (in central government jobs)... only because the government totally ignored, neglected education of the obcs all through this period when it was fully aware that their performance in schools and colleges was poor.
or should we think the converse? that the government was intentionally favoring the upper castes?
dharmesh,
you don't see the relevance of the figures.. the mandal recommendations in recruitment for central govt., jobs were accepted only in the mid-nineties..do you think there had been a significant increase in obcs in central govt., jobs in the period? all i'm asking you is think of all the jobs the obcs lost in govt from 1947 to the mid nineties only because the govt was not sincere enough in improving educational opportunities for them.
'why should a child of an educated backward caste person(no more backward, who may be doctor, eng , government officer)who can give all kind of education to his child be given priviledge of reservation?'
the creamy layer is supposed to address that..aren't you agreeing with me to an extent? that people from a deprived background shouldn't be measured on the same scale as those from a privileged background?
'i had seen people who got admission to med college from reservation, they knew that they have reservations in PG courses, and hence never studied throughout their MBBS, what about that?'
i don't approve of that.. but aren't you basing your judgment on the attitude of a small group of people..? i understand medicine requires a lot of amount of dedication ..so i think all medicos have to study a lot if they wish to survive..again, the whole issue boils down to the fact that there are too few seats.
'do you think there had been a significant increase in obcs in central govt., jobs in the period?'
that should read.' ...jobs in the interim period'.
dharmesh,
'yes, i am sure today that atleast 50 % jobs in govern services are accupied by reserved cat(i will not like to call them backward caste, they are no more backward)'
are you joking? read my post 'who's afraid of the numbers and the articles it links to...' there are 22.5 lakh unfilled sc/st jobs in the government..and they don't even have figures on the obcs who only started getting jobs in the central govt.,( through reservations) since 1994..and we all know there are no more new jobs left in the public sector.
'obc voice if u are from OBC cat, have u returned ur OBC certificate?????have u decided that u will not take any obc priviledge for ur children??'
what makes you think i'm not from the obc category..no, i don't have any children.. and i hope the situation will improve in the distant so that they'd no longer have to produce a certificate to prove that their parents have been kicked around by folks like you.
just giving jobs is important for OBCvoice...wo waha jake kya karte hain iska allah hi malik!!
Dharmesh i suggest you to quit justifying yourself in front of this fella-OBCVOICE
he is preparing for a civil war...and might just demand separate country for himself!!beware of enemies of iNDIAN unity like him.
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