Time warp
Romila Thapar writing on the past (the History of India, Volume 1, page 85):
'Divisions of caste split India's heart and soul. The historical beneficiaries of this model of governance were the upper castes, led by the Brahmin caste. The system that they developed over thousands of years is known as Brahminism: a collection of social regulations that amounted to the world's most comprehensive system of repression. Through a small percentage of the population being able to gain total control of the vast majority, Brahminism was able to create extreme self-contempt among the larger part of the population, and extreme self-confidence among the ruling minority.'
Watch this 'extreme self-confidence' in action when upper-caste kids preen and smirk in talk-shows on television: nothing has changed.
posted by obc voice @ 1:57 PM
11 Comments:
"I have referred to efficiency & our getting out of our traditional ruts........I dislike any kind of reservation, more particularly in services.I react strongly to anything which leads to second class standards........If we go in for reservations on communal & caste basis we swamp the bright & able people......I WANT MY COUNTRY TO BE FIRST-CLASS COUNTRY IN EVERYTHING.THE MOMENT WE ENCOURAGE SECOND CLASS, WE ARE LOST..............This way lies not only folly but disaster."
--Pt. Nehru
DEAR OBC VOICE.THINK ABOUT IT.
thanks for dropping by.
DEAR MANEE, we already are a second class (hmm..third class is more appropriate perhaps, considering we still are a third world country). the elitist institutions that nehru built, and the massive temples of socialism like the public sector enterprises are living proof of the way he carried out policies of 'positive discrimination' in favour of the elite - who else but the upper castes had the education and training to fill jobs in these institutions and organizations the first few decades after independence?
you want efficiency- read what Justice Krishna IYER has to say in my post-'Ihe malady of India lies elsewhere'. (it's dated 13th May). what iyer thinks of 'standards' in the institutions that nehru built is a damning judgment on the kind of woolly-headed leader nehru was -and a second-rate thinker.
then do answer my queries...
1.Do you believe that 100% of OBCs have been given complete opportunities till class 12th that now all they need is reservations in IITs and the like?
2.The really deserving Candidates even those who belong to SCs/STs or OBCs were able to get into IITs,Or IIMS and of course IAS THROUGH THE GENERAL CATAGORY.This means you are certainly more capable than what the politicians are assessing.WHy do you need reservations anyway??The really needy dont even know what IIT is! GO to the villages and see your counterparts' deplorable condition.They dont need reservations...but something more concrete.
3.FOr me ITs not you and us--its about all of us.India belongs to you as much as it belongs to us,so the whole concept of reservations is just creating a peculiar hatred among the classes.
Brahmins ho ya shudra...its all over with the fall of britishers.And where it is still more prevalant,there reserving seats in post graduate courses??HOw practical is that??
IN smaller villages OBCs are condemned and enslaved like animals,would the reservations in IITs help them in any way?THInk once...for the overall situation,and not just in the perception of yes and no for reservations.NO politician loves you,they love their seats,their votes..thats it.
4.My friend in skool is also from OBC.and she helped me so much in distributing pamphlets to all classes regarding the protests...I asked her views on the whole issue.YOu know what she said??
she said"i am against these reservations because i hate it when i am underestimated on the basis of my caste.OF course i can do it through the general catagory,i dont want myself to be tagged as the reserved quota student,i want to show the world that i too can stand on my own feet without the crutches of reservations"
i had tears in my eyes to feel why some people never realize this-OBCs are also humans who need a fair chance...BUt reservations??these are lame excuses for not being able to do anything for the past 50 years.
i would love to hear your views.
manee,
do you believe that i am 100% intellectually challenged, (as the protests on the streets and the reactions and opinions voiced on tv seem to indicate), to not recognize that your point one is a gentle reminder to tell us that we obcs require access to better facilities at the school level more than reserved seats in iits/iims?
it is too late to make that point now - and this isn't the first time that this argument was made. the Kaka Kalelkar commission was set up as long back as 1955 to look into the condition of backward classes in the country. and the Mandal Commision was set up in 1978. what does that mean? It means that the government had a fair inkling as far back as 50 years ago that there was something terribly wrong with the way the fruits of investments in education and industry and other infrastructure were being cornered by a miniscule, select group of castes in the country. That the wrong kind of investments were being made - that the government, and the ruling classes, were promoting (and intentionally perhaps because they were almost entirely composed of the select few castes i referred to earlier)the interests of the few over the many. of the few against the many.
When the mandal commision submitted its report, it observed that the obcs constituted less than 12% of the class4 employees and 5% of the class1 employees in the central government. We are talking about jobs in the central government which is the largest employer of organized workforce in the country- The employer who played the biggest role in building an educated middle class in this country. i'd like you to calculate, roughly in your mind, how many obcs were kept out of these cushy jobs(when the competition was nothing as compared with now)-and judging from the performance of the public sector assuming that merit wasn't exactly the driving criterion in recruiting. if the obcs had been given the same access(as the upper castes) to schools and other facilities then.. their representation in these jobs wouldn't have been so abysmal. also:in the state governments and in the state-government owned enterprises their(obc) representation on an average wasn't much better even though they(the states) had woken up much earlier than the centre and had taken up policy measures to remedy this lopsided situation. That was the state of affairs in 1982 when the Mandal Commision submitted its report. Its recommendations were sought to be implemented eight years later in 1990. It was successfully stalled until 1993-4 because the ruling classes were not prepared to concede, even then, any share in the only secure jobs in the country. and even when it got through the courts it was only partially implemented- jobs in central government and the public sector, but no admissions in the centrally run educational institutions. my conclusion: the government which had actively promoted the growth of an educated middle class composed almost entirely of the upper castes in the country, had simultaneously throttled all chances of the emergence of a fair representation of the obcs in this class. the government played favorites - the backwards were perhaps only one step behind the upper castes in 1947.. now they're three steps behind.
as i said earlier, this isn't the first time the argument 'better schooling-not reservations' was made.. it crops up every time reservations catches the popular attention. it would have been better if corrective measures had been taken up in 1955(when nehru, through the statement you quoted chose to dismiss reservations and ignore schooling), or in 1982 when the mandal commision submitted its report, or in 1990 when it(mandal) was sought to be implemented and was so theatrically opposed.
now it's gone beyond the realms of patience and logic: the obcs perceive the sole purpose behind the creation of the public sector and large governments was a deliberate measure to promote the upper castes' interests. and they want a share of the goodies. if the ruling classes wish to get rid of reservations as soon as possible - they had better start making serious efforts to build what they had always used as a ploy- better, more accessible schools and the enabling infrastructure that goes along with it. so that the obcs may swiftly rise to the levels of upper castes at least in education. this new plans of reservations are a serious warning, and perhaps the last, to the ruling classes that they had better improve their act.
you say: 'FOr me ITs not you and us--its about all of us..'
what makes you think it's any different for me?
' Brahmins ho ya shudra...its all over with the fall of britishers.'
i've checked your profile on your blog- you're very young and seem to be a very sensitive young lady.
this is a debate that should have been resolved long before you were born. and frankly speaking, i find it very cruel that the very young have to come into contact with the realities of caste so very abruptly. caste isn't always about discrimination.. it's mostly about the limiting of opportunities as you go down the caste hierarchy.ask your butcher if his father was a butcher, and your tailor, and your dhobi (if they haven't already been replaced by packaged, processed meat counters in supermarkets, designers and washing machines). most times , anyone who attempts this exercise would get the answer - yes. that's the extent of mobility that caste extends you -very little. try that question in any small town or village in any state in india. caste didn't go away with the british because they didn't bring it along. and my response to your first point makes it plain that caste divisions were only exacerbated by the partisan policies of the post-independence governments in india. Do you think that caste is so feeble a structure that you look the other way and it will disappear? i urge you to read more on the subject-for starters, read at least my post-'caught in a matrimonial column' and'classes that became castes' and the links they point to.
the reservations issue is a timely reminder to us to look at the most harmful social institution in our country- it's my belief if indian society doesn't boldly,and sincerely, deal with caste it will never be become a developed country, leave alone a superpower. and if the upper castes believe it is a minor social aberration that is exclusively a problem of the lower castes- god help them. because caste makes victims of everyone - it makes some feel falsely superior, some inferior..and restricts everyone's life within narrow boundaries.
' My friend...she said"i am against these reservations because i hate it when i am underestimated on the basis of my caste'..
your friend, i'm sorry to say, is a self-centered person who can't see beyond her own narrow world : ask her if her relatives who are less fortunate than her feel the same. ages ago, i made it through open competition in whatever competitive exams i attempted (even the national ones) and sometimes made it to the top three-but none of my two dozen odd cousins even came close to qualifying. the measure of true confidence(and character),imo, is the ability to sense the potential in those less fortunate than you and encourage them- or at least listen to them. like you are doing now- and your friend, who perhaps has more knowledge on the subject- isn't.
'i had tears in my eyes to feel why some people never realize this-OBCs are also humans who need a fair chance...'
i see that you are a sensitive,and very young, as i said earlier, and that's the reason why i tried to put in more effort to respond to you.. this wasn't your fight until yesterday.. so you weren't prepared for it. i have been exposed to this debate ages ago -when mandal first submitted its report. i respect whatever stand you take - but don't expect me to support it. but if you made a more serious effort to understand the problem - i'm sure you'd change your stand.
I respect everybody's opinion on the issue, that is why i try to view all the things objectively...excluding the effects on me.
do you believe that i am 100% intellectually challenged
MY STAND:certainly not,noway.Wherever i may seem to imply that,forgive me please.
miniscule, select group of castes in the country.
MY STAND:IT maybe right here to say assets were mostly in the hands of the miniscule but in no way can we say MOST of them belonged to the upper classes...in fact there ARE OBCs,STs,SCs who were a part of it and many 'upper class' families were excluded from it.Evidence here is: the scenario today where all OBCs,STs SCs are employed but the middle and upper classes have the major share in unemployment.
the ruling classes, were promoting (and intentionally perhaps because they were almost entirely composed of the select few castes i referred to earlier)the interests of the few over the many. of the few against the many.
and
the obcs perceive the sole purpose behind the creation of the public sector and large governments was a deliberate measure to promote the upper castes' interests. and they want a share of the goodies.
MY STAND: I think here you are highly mistaken,for sure.The promotion of private sector or any other 'elitist' institution was done with the view of development of the country because till 1990 the country's gross domestic product (annual) growth rate had dropped significantly from 15% to 5% (approximation).This led the erstwhile government to reconsider the economic policies of the country.
that is when LPG was introduced
L-liberalization (so that many industries can flourish)
P-privatization so that people should not solely depend on the government for their incomes and
G-globalization of course the coming of foriegn countries/companies to invest in india.
This resulted in sudden shooting up of the GDP and evidently the promotion of private sector was a success.
certainly,all this could not be done SOLELY TO GIVE PRECEDENCE TO UPPER CASTES OVER OBCS ETC.A reform was needed and it had to be implemented...the country's economy was at stake.
the backwards were perhaps only one step behind the upper castes in 1947.. now they're three steps behind.
MY STAND:I find it a bit ironical to state this fact (true fact,because i dont lie).The locality where i live has mainly OBC residents and quite interestingly all of them are quite well off,one of them even has a monthly salary of 40,000 pm,believe it or not.ANd in the same colony the supposedly upper caste man is unemployed,with no income in his house because the government doesnt do anything about him,BECAUSE HE IS NOT OBC!!(his daughter takes tuitions along with her 12th class studies to run the house).CO-incidently his son is preparing for IIM to fulfill the dreams of his father.NOW imagine if he misses out on admission by the skin of his teeth because the same seat was reserved for someone else??(no wonder in the end if it lies vacant,whatsoever reason,you can judge !)wouldn't that be unfair?
LIFe was unfair to SCs STs OBCs-accepted.BUT then the policy of reservations is unfair to non obcs.
REMEMBER: two wrongs do not make a right.
it observed that the obcs constituted less than 12% of the class4 employees and 5% of the class1 employees in the central government.
MY STAND: IF just because of lesser numbers we begin giving reservations then i think reservations should also be there for :
a.women(much less than 5%)
b.muslims,christians,sikhs,parsees and other minorities.
HILARIOUS isnt it?SIMPLEST of simple things-reservations are unfair.MERIT should be the criteria.because taken for example:
INDIAN CRICKET TEAM.
SELECTION CITERIA:TALENT
RESULTS:A GOOD TEAM.
if we want the country to develop to the fullest,we need to eradicate reservations,or at least not increase them to th apalling figure of 49.5 SIMPLY BECAUSE WE NEED THE BEST TO COME OUT IRRESPECTIVE OF CASTE AND NOT BECAUSE WE WANT TO EXCLUDE OBCS.ANYONE WITH MERIT IS WELCOME,AND ACCORDING TO YOU YOU CERTAINLY HAVE IT.Talent doesnt need the crutches of reservations.
you say: 'FOr me ITs not you and us--its about all of us..'
what makes you think it's any different for me?
MY ANSWER: the following phrases used by you make me feel that you are distancing yourself from the country...:
1."to the ruling classes that they had better improve their act."
2."we already are a second class (hmm..third class is more appropriate perhaps, considering we still are a third world country)"
3.positive discrimination' in favour of the elite
these statements make me feel you view the whole richer class as socially upper class due to their caste.
DO you know "dhirubhai ambani's" story?HE was a lohar in a small village but only due to his mind and talent he has been able to build such a large empire of companies...MERIT AND TALENT ARE ALWAYS WELCOME.
OBCS HAVE TALENT: THEY WILL BE GIVEN PREFERENCE.
OBCS DONT HAVE TALENT:THEY DONT DESERVA TO COME TO "INSTITUIONS OF EXCELLENCE" (read as pure excellence IRRESPECTIVE of the caste colour sex creed or religion)
the reservations issue is a timely reminder to us to look at the most harmful social institution in our country- it's my belief if indian society doesn't boldly,and sincerely, deal with caste it will never be become a developed country, leave alone a superpower. and if the upper castes believe it is a minor social aberration that is exclusively a problem of the lower castes- god help them. because caste makes victims of everyone - it makes some feel falsely superior, some inferior..and restricts everyone's life within narrow boundaries.
MY STAND: here i do agree with you,caste is a serious problem...it is a disease that will ruin the heart of india.but dont you think that snatching away the seat of a meritorious student(here assuming that if the quota applicant is less meritorious,if more or equally talented,he is certainly welcome),such an act would certainly not increase love,benevolence,respect and sympathy for the OBC/ST/SC people?her you will have to agree,it would rather worsen.IT already has.
your friend, i'm sorry to say, is a self-centered person who can't see beyond her own narrow world : ask her if her relatives who are less fortunate than her feel the same.
MY STAND: First of all she is not self centered,else she would have supported reservations because for her it is something to celebrate,to jump with joy and ecstasy...but she said it is unfair with non obcs etc.HAD she been self centered she wouldnt have gone distributing pamphlets with me.
and yes her relatives were less fortunate than her.THAT IS THE DAY SHE CEASED TRUSTING destiny and began to believe in her own talent and capabilities.remember in life if she needs me i will be there for her,but i hate INJUSTICE.nad this injustice against injustice is certainly not the solution.
lastly...
i see that you are a sensitive,and very young, as i said earlier, and that's the reason why i tried to put in more effort to respond to you.
and
i've checked your profile on your blog- you're very young and seem to be a very sensitive young lady.
this is a debate that should have been resolved long before you were born. and frankly speaking, i find it very cruel that the very young have to come into contact with the realities of caste so very abruptly. caste isn't always about discrimination..
MY STAND:so what if im young and sensitive?had i not been young,would you have taken my opinion differently?
i am sensitive,proud to be that way.because keeping aside the sentiments you have already seen what happens.
THANK YOU FOR READING MY LONG OPINION.MY STAND WONT CHANGE.I KNOW I AM RIGHT.BECAUSE I SUPPORT JUSTICE.JUSTICE TO ALL.ALL MEANS ALL,NOT JUST UPPER,NOT JUST LOWER CASTES.
manee,
what am i suuposed to say?
i realize you very desperately need to believe in the idea that there-are-no-castes-in-the-country - so you cling to any tiny bit of evidence to prop up your world-view..
'Evidence here is: the scenario today where all OBCs,STs SCs are employed but the middle and upper classes have the major share in unemployment.'
i should believe that i suppose. you don't call that evidence manee, you call it ...for lack of a better word, your opinion.
'The promotion of private sector or any other 'elitist' institution was done with the view of development of the country because till 1990 ...blah blah blah..'
did i question the promotion of private sector anywhere in my post or in my replies? i had observed that the public seemed to have been created with interests of the upper castes in view because they had/have cornered most of the jobs there..
and was iqestioning the reforms process anywhere in my post or in my replies?
'The locality where i live has mainly OBC residents and quite interestingly all of them are quite well off,one of them even has a monthly salary of 40,000 pm,believe it or not.ANd in the same colony the supposedly upper caste man is unemployed,with no income in his house because the government doesnt do anything about him,BECAUSE HE IS NOT OBC!!'should i go and ask him to quit his 40,00p.m job ? manee, the creamy layer clause is supposed to eliminate people like him from the ambit of reservations. why don't you fight to see that it is fully implemented?
and the rest of you logic...where you go back to your caste-driven position of ridiculing reservations (and by extension obcs)..what can i say?
you're right of course, we're hilarious.
indianschoolkids,
'someone wil have to kill Mr.Arjun Singh.if nobody else me myself '
great idea! and what about the obcs? who's going to kill them?
youth-engg,
yes, why bother?
CASE 1
YOU:should i go and ask him to quit his 40,00p.m job?
ME:well actually it is 40,000.not 4000 (not even 40,00!!)
and i think you dint get it,i stated it here becoz all OBCs may not be economically backward,or economically backward may not be OBCs.Thats it.
CASE 2
YOU:i realize you very desperately need to believe in the idea that there-are-no-castes-in-the-country - so you cling to any tiny bit of evidence to prop up your world-view..
ME:ohh...have i not been coherent enough or something?
err well then for the same reason,maybe due to lack of time you missed out on few of lines quoted by me...im just copy pasting them.here you go....
MY STAND: here i do agree with you,caste is a serious problem...it is a disease that will ruin the heart of india.but dont you think that snatching away the seat of a meritorious student(here assuming that if the quota applicant is less meritorious,if more or equally talented,he is certainly welcome),such an act would certainly not increase love,benevolence,respect and sympathy for the OBC/ST/SC people?her you will have to agree,it would rather worsen.IT already has.
NOW TELL ME,IF YOU DONT AGREE,WHAT IS YOUR STAND??
CASE 3:
YOU:i had observed that the public seemed to have been created with interests of the upper castes in view because they had/have cornered most of the jobs there..
ME:firstly and frankly,i could not get the logic behind this argument of yours,so just please elaborate.
however,if i still try to re-read it..it just seems to portray that YOU very desperately need to believe in the idea that there-are-just-upper-castes-in-the-country-given-preference so you cling to any tiny bit of evidence to prop up your world-view..
BUT...but MERIT=PREFERENCE
then you would say,
OBCs were not fortunate enough?they are waiting for justice....blah blah...
are you trying to directly imply that OBCs are not competent enough to enter so called 'elitist' institutions on their own??
here you will again say that there were no schooling facilities for them till establishment of 'KAKA KALEKAR-1955' (or perhaps MANDAL COMMISSION??as late as 1978...1990...1993?)
then perhaps they are available now,arent they?perhaps im mistaken again,certainly the OBCs DO have access to schooling now??rt?that is why all they need is IIT/AIIMS/professional colleges' seats right?ALL the OBCs have been preparing to get into engg and medical(note that i have deliberately used ALL here-becoz now reservations are being implemented on the basis of % population so i have to assume this fact, to be mathematically correct.)but thay are year by year denied admission becoz the elite want only upper castes,rt?
THATs exactly why(or should be why)you are suporting reservations...educationally backward need to be forwarded (let alone the fact-at the cost of a deserving meritorious student becoz you cat 100% gaurantee a quota student to be as meritorious,surely??)
BRUTAL TRUTH: my frend's first cousin is preparing for medical for the past 5 years.he has given the DPMT exam 4 times in a row and everytime missed out by the skin of his teeth.HAD he been an OBC,he could have gotten in so easily,first attempt itself.isnt it?BUt anyway thats FAIR.LET him prepare for another year...he deserves no priviledges,becoz his fore-fore-fore fathers were injust to OBCs(then untouchables).why care for him eh?yeah...fair enough!
49.5% exclusively for the lower castes(and classes),rest for the rest of the people,what merit man...ALL OBCS/STS/SCS will be admitted,general catagory should compete 800 students per seat,but look!!!we are giving so much to the socially,economically and educationally backward...hey isnt that the purpose of reservations?
the 799 per seat may like to go abroad(the small margin who can afford-rest can sit home and try for another year)
no worries if BRain drain is favoured due to this...country's progress depends on OBCs!!NOT MERIT...
hey OBCvoice,you were right.i have begun to agree with you.
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